How do you make sure that a PF 3-bettor doesn't just have overcards

jt1 · #1 12-26-2005, 04:31 PM

I went for the retarded donk bet
Opponents are unknown
I don't like my flop fold either

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB calls, Hero folds

#2 12-26-2005, 04:43 PM

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Opponents are unknown

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You have to change this.
If you are multi tabling and don't have time to know your opponents, I would check their PFR% and postflop aggression. If they're very aggressive a call-down here may be viable, but its probably close either way. What do you think his 3betting range is here, other than higher pairs? Will he 3bet you with AQo, AQs, worse?

I've certainly been in similar situations postflop and won vs. unimproved overs with the opponent betting the whole way, but I suspect I lose money here more often than I win.

Many will suggest that you don't raise 44 here UTG until you know the table very well. I would agree.

You can also try check raising this flop. It is fairly nice flop for your hand. Being out of position here really sucks, but you might gain some decent information if he 3 bets you as opposed to just raising your donk bet.

Redeye · #3 12-26-2005, 04:45 PM

I really like either c/ring the flop and betting the turn (I fold to a turn raise unless the opponent is really aggressive), or if I think opponent is really aggressive and will 3-bet my flop c/r with big overs, I'll check call and donk a good turn card. I think most players will chill out after being c/red on the flop even with overs. Also, if you get smooth called and raised on the turn, I think it means that they have a big pair a huge % of the time.

Guruman · #4 12-26-2005, 04:57 PM

that flop play is the worst of all worlds.

lots of CO three bets will raise here with overs or a flush draw that they like.

lots of fives and big pairs will wait and pop the turn.

I think a stop n go may protect you better against those types of plays.

probably a better play is to check and see if bb folds to co's autobet. If he does then you can play WA/WB and showdown. If he calls or raises, you can reevaluate either here or on the turn.

SparkyDog · #5 12-26-2005, 05:37 PM

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that flop play is the worst of all worlds.

lots of CO three bets will raise here with overs or a flush draw that they like.

lots of fives and big pairs will wait and pop the turn.

I think a stop n go may protect you better against those types of plays.

probably a better play is to check and see if bb folds to co's autobet. If he does then you can play WA/WB and showdown. If he calls or raises, you can reevaluate either here or on the turn.

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WA/WB isn't applicable here. Hero should show aggression somewhere in this hard.

StellarWind · #6 12-26-2005, 05:55 PM

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Hero should show aggression somewhere in this hard.

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Why? How do you think this hand should be played?

SparkyDog · #7 12-26-2005, 06:14 PM

Yeah, strike that from the record. I forgot about BB being in there.

raze · #8 12-26-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I went for the retarded donk bet
Opponents are unknown
I don't like my flop fold either

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB calls, Hero folds

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey dude, I'd definitely check-raise that flop. Your read is very important here though.. in my limited experience, a 3bet preflop will more often be a pair 88-AA than a big ace. With no read on the 3-bettor, check-raise, and throw it away if you get flop-3bet. Also, if that BB calls the CO's flop bet, turn that check-raise to a check/fold. Your hand is just way too vulnerable to try and defend against two people who won't fold.

Pog0 · #9 12-26-2005, 06:46 PM

pkr2k5, what table conditions are you looking for to raise 44 utg? I'm curious because I can't think of any situation where I'd both want to raise 44 utg and not want to leave the table.

As for the hand, once BB calls, if you're ahead, there are probably at least 12 cards that beat you twice. If BB folded, you're in a tough spot because the pf 3-bettor could EASILY have overcards and have no respect for your flop donk. High cards often take shots at ragged boards and your donkbet is a pair as often as it is something like AJ or KQ so villain's AK is not holding back, and if it happens to be suited in spades, clubs, or have a spade, he may be more inclined to semibluff you. It's just too easy to be forced off the best hand when you play it like this.

Ask yourself: what am I trying to accomplish by donking the flop and what will my opponent think I'm trying to accomplish by donking the flop.

raze · #10 12-26-2005, 06:59 PM

Ooooh I missed you were UTG. Probably shouldn't be open-raising 44.