have semibluffs become obsolete?

[mike l.]

the 9 pairs on the board on the turn. so anyone w/ a 9 would then have trips.

yeah i guess it was way too thin, bad example, interesting discussion though.

[Nottom]

Would you fold JJ here? The semi-bluff isn't worthless, just isn't going to work when your opponent has a hand. If he had AK instead, this would be a different story.

[Gabe]

Yeah, like if he had flashed you AK instead of JJ.

[spoody]

I am always amazed at how different every table plays. At some tables, as the preflop raiser, you can win the pot on the flop with another bet or raise. At other tables, they expect the preflop raiser to make a play after the flop and will raise you or at least call you down....and I am talking about general situations with average cards, not specific times when you may run into a real hand.

I have begun to try to play a little more reactionary and REALLY watch what is going on and not just automatically and robotically bet the flop if I was the preflop raiser...Duh! It sounds simple but its pretty easy to get into a routine and stupidly bet the low flop with AK or something when the table has aready proven to you that they will not stand for that kind of play.

I saw a micro interview with Phil Ivey on, I think, the WSOP2003 on Espn and he said he sits down at the table with no plan, and plays by reacting to what his opponents are doing. I think that is great advice, but of course very difficult for most players to pull off. There is alot of ego to get rid of to be able to fold your AK on the flop after 3 betting it, but there are times where a check and fold really are the best move...depending on the table :-)

Last night I was down $350 because I kept betting the flop with nothing and was getting called or raised every time...so I tightened up, realized I was going to need a real hand to play with, and ended up making $90 (+440-350=+90) Not very Phil Ivey like, but I do think of what he said now each time I sit down...Im just a little slow.

Spoody

[Diplomat]

12-handed games? Crapola. I thought the 11-handed games I play were big.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

Right, I agree, no chance to semibluff this hand and win -- but I do think bets, in general, do better than checkraises. They tend to be a bit more credible, imo.

By the way, you should want to be caught bluffing or semi-bluffing every once and a while, for deception, advertising, etc. You do not have to win every time you bluff for the bluff to be correct.

-Diplomat

[ACPlayer]

In this particular case your post-flop strategy has to be check-call, check-call, bet (as the cards worked out), pay the minimum to see the hand.

You cant say I am going to represent a 9 and then come up with a tactic to represent a nine, it is simply not believable, in it self.

Semi-bluff's actually work best when there is a legit threat on board, against a player who can lay down a hand, and is completely consistent with the betting pattern on this hand and your historical betting patterns.

Practically, I find Semi-bluffs to be useful in short handed unraised pots when first to act in the blinds; When a medium card pairs on the turn and I have check called the flop from a PF raiser, and I suspect that the other guy has a marginal hand.

Against thinking opposition, you also have to establish the betting big hands into small pots and check raising the turn when you hit the Semi-bluff patterns as discussed in HPFAP. Without proper balancing, you are asking for trouble.

Betting a flush draw into a pre-flop raiser is the standard play for most overly loose and overly aggressive players and unlikely to work against competent opposition.l

[SoBeDude]

It definitely takes some adjustements to play it profitably.

Pots are big quite often (read protected) and you usually have the odds to draw to the big hands, which is nice. 3-bets to isolate don't work very often.

One of the regulars (a recent 7th place finisher in a WPT event) says the game is unbeatable in the long run. I disagree.

But I sure gave up playing AJo from any position but LP.

-Scott

[Diplomat]

Yeah, I can see that happening for sure. I asked a WSOP champ for advice about playing in these games (he used to live here) and he suggested that I not even bother playing any hands UTG or UTG+1 unless it was a group 1 hand, or some of the stronger group 2 hands.

It feels like a crime to throw away AJ in a game populated by weak players, especially after playing 6-handed 15-30 on Party.

Not a crime against humanity, just a misdemeanor.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

How beatable these games are, like any game, depends largely on the collection or rake. I think you could be a total tightass and do very well, if the time collection does not eat you up.

I play tight enough in our 11-handed game to catch up on sleep between aces and kings, and still turn a decent profit.

-Diplomat