I Am Deeply Sorry For Cluttering The Boards

[Spladle Master]

I think every single street could be played a different way without being wrong. Now tell me what you think.

Tournament - 7 Card Stud High (20/40), Ante 5, Bring-In 10 (hand converter)

Seat 1: 566
Seat 2: 909
Seat 3: 1,762
Seat 4: 1,046
Seat 5: 1,010
Hero: 1,052
Seat 7: 650
Seat 8: 1,005

3rd Street - (2.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (5.00 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (6.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (10.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

River - (18.50 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___calls

Total pot: (22.50 BB)

[sexdrugsmoney]

I don't know about the raise on 4th, yet the highest I've ever played is $2-$4, and not that well. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Cheers,
SDM

[Spladle Master]

This is an $11 tournament, and the highest stud game I've played is 3/6. Don't hesitate to offer your thoughts, whatever they may be.

[Roland]

Before I respond to all these posts, I have a question.
I recently started to play NLHE SNGs and reading the STT forum some. From what I understand, the basic strategy (assuming the opposition isn’t too tough) is to pass up on small edges early and try to get to the bubble with an intact stack, since that is where the real money is made.
I don’t know if this makes sense in a limit SNG though. One big factor in no limit is fold equity, because you can force your opponents to make a decision for all there chips. You can’t do this in limit though. So maybe this approach doesn’t make sense anymore. Maybe you should play a ton of extra hands early and try to build a big stack? Especially since your opponents are so terrible and will pay you off if you happen to make a big hand.
Any thoughts on this?

[Spladle Master]

Actually, correct play early on in limit SnGs (be it stud, Omaha or hold 'em) is virtually identical to correct play in ring games. And while it is correct that you should pass up small edges early on, it is important that these edges be SMALL. So it is almost always correct to fold AK to a raise and a reraise in the early levels. But as a counter-example, on the ninth hand of the last NL hold 'em SnG I played, I got it all-in pre-flop with ATo against this crazy guy who'd been pushing every hand. He had T5o, I lost. I am running bad. Oops, bad beat post.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, correct play early on in limit SnGs (be it stud, Omaha or hold 'em) is virtually identical to correct play in ring games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to elaborate? (Why, and where did you find this info?) I’m interested, because I frequently feel lost in these (although I rarely play them).

Anyway, I’ll look at this hand as if it were $1/$2 or something (I think the skill level is about the same).

3rd street:
Completing wouldn’t be terrible here I guess, since you will probably have a small equity edge (on average) and will usually get several callers. But your edge really is pretty damn small and what’s more, completing may deprive you of the possibility to push a huge edge on 4th (if you catch a diamond) because they’ll often just check it to you. Ideally though, you would like seat 7 to bet on 4th, giving you the chance to raise the entire field if you improve (or otherwise just take one off last to act when you’re sure there won’t be a raise. Lastly, somebody else will often complete, so the money will go in anyway lots of times.

4th street:
In a very loose game like this, I like the raise, since they’ll call regardless and that’s exactly what you won’t. One or two of them might fold, but on average you’ll get more money into the pot by raising in my experience.
In a tougher game, you definitely should only call here though, since raising will often leave you heads-up with what looks like a slow played big buried pair or two pairs.

5th street:
He can’t be full, because two deuces were folded already. So you have an easy call.

6th street:
So he was slow playing aces huh?

River:
Nice suckout.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
Care to elaborate? (Why, and where did you find this info?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Tournament Poker For Advanced Players, page 26. "The fact is that the single biggest change between proper sidegame strategy and proper tournament strategy arises from the fact that your opponents typically play much differently when in tournaments than in sidegames."

[Roland]

Thanks. I got that book recently but haven’t found the time to read it yet.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
3rd street:
Completing wouldn’t be terrible here I guess, since you will probably have a small equity edge (on average) and will usually get several callers. But your edge really is pretty damn small and what’s more, completing may deprive you of the possibility to push a huge edge on 4th (if you catch a diamond) because they’ll often just check it to you. Ideally though, you would like seat 7 to bet on 4th, giving you the chance to raise the entire field if you improve (or otherwise just take one off last to act when you’re sure there won’t be a raise. Lastly, somebody else will often complete, so the money will go in anyway lots of times.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly.

[ QUOTE ]
4th street:
In a very loose game like this, I like the raise, since they’ll call regardless and that’s exactly what you won’t. One or two of them might fold, but on average you’ll get more money into the pot by raising in my experience.
In a tougher game, you definitely should only call here though, since raising will often leave you heads-up with what looks like a slow played big buried pair or two pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly.

[ QUOTE ]
5th street:
He can’t be full, because two deuces were folded already. So you have an easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I considered raising here.

[ QUOTE ]
6th street:
So he was slow playing aces huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice read. I considered folding due to the abundance of paired boards.

[Roland]

I can’t see raising 5th. Maybe if you were last to act, but I doubt you have more than 25% equity. And getting it heads-up with what is almost surely two (big) pairs would be a terrible result.

And I can’t see folding 6th either. You’re getting almost 7:1 on the call, assuming the kings won’t 3-bet (and they really can’t unless the guy has trips) and that’s more than you need.
And yes, they all have potential re-draws to a boat, but
- seat 3 might have only two outs, if he started with a 3-flush.
- seat 5 definitely has only 2 outs to a boat (most likely the 2 aces)
- seat 7 may have anywhere from 0 to 4 outs (but usually only 2)
I can’t do the math, but I don’t think this is enough to warrant a fold getting 7:1.