A trio of teasers - QJs

TJD · #1 09-06-2005, 06:05 AM

This cropped up today and made me think.

 UTG is 27/11 moderate aggression, tricky and semi loose post flop
MP1 is 76/3 moderate aggression and normally straightforward but relatively tight postflop
MP2 is pretty unknown but seems loose both preflop and postflop so far 

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Any problems with this call? 

Flop: (10.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls???, BB folds, UTG folds.

I do not like the K or the 2 hearts. I do not like the fact that 2 players including the PFR are behind me and I am not closing the action. However, the pot is offering over 12:1. Call, fold, raise? 

Turn: (6.83 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero?

Now what? 

Thanks all.

Trevor

Adjutor · #2 09-06-2005, 06:27 AM

Preflop, it's iffy but there's a lot out there already and you've got position on the field. You're probably not looking to take down the pot with a pair though. The problem with this call is getting into a situation like the one you're in.

[ QUOTE ]

MP1 is 76/3 moderate aggression and normally straightforward but relatively tight postflop
MP2 is pretty unknown but seems loose both preflop and postflop so far 

[/ QUOTE ]

How tight is MP1 postlfop? Is he capable of betting a draw twice? Or a hand like QT? If you don't think so you're probably not looking too good on the turn.

MP2 could have anything. He looks like he's drawing or unsure of his hand. My guess is that he could be playing a Q or K and looking to see if it's good at the end.

I think the flop call's alright. I don't like raising here with the PFR behind you, especially if he's tricky. When he dumps on the flop you have to figure his range was probably somewhere around 99-JJ, AJs, ATs. Doubtful he's rasising many more hands from early position and dumping them on this flop.

Since MP1 led out again and you said he's pretty straightforward postflop you're probably still behind. With MP2 calling and the pot only sitting at 8BB I don't see it worth peeling another, especially since many of your cards are either gone or possibly improving your opponent's hand.

I peel the flop, but I'm dumping on the turn.

vmacosta · #3 09-06-2005, 06:31 AM

folds. I like the play PF and I don't mind just calling on the flop though raising (and bet/folding on the turn if checked to but calling a 3bet and folding the turn UI) is probably better.

DeeJ · #4 09-06-2005, 06:38 AM

The pot odds are too nice to ignore for 1 bet on the flop, and the presence of MP2 and MP1 would lead me to believe middle pair is unlikely to be good, and with 2 flush draws out there I'm gone at the turn.

catlover · #5 09-06-2005, 06:41 AM

Preflop -- close decision but I think with two cold callers, one of whom plays waaaay too many hands, it's OK.

Flop -- fold. Here are six reasons. The first three you mentioned:

1) You don't like the king.
2) You don't like the two hearts.
3) You don't like the possibility of a raise behind.
4) You don't like the fact that a jack, which makes you two pair, could make someone a straight.
5) You don't have a backdoor flush draw.
6) The whole situation is reverse implied odds.

Also, when you flop a marginal made hand in a multiway pot and there is a bet in front of you, you should generally either raise or fold. I think calling is the worst option in this type of spot.

In this particular case, a raise may get rid of someone behind you with AQ, king-bad kicker, AT, or T9 -- all hands you very much want to get rid of.

However, I think that overall your hand is weak enough that folding is much better than raising here.

Adjutor · #6 09-06-2005, 06:47 AM

I think that raising here may very well be worse than calling if you've still got the 'tricky' UTG player left to act, but I may be way off.

TJD · #7 09-06-2005, 02:21 PM

So, everyone's gone on the turn assuming they got past the flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Would the flop call get past Ed Miller's scrutiny?

Ed!!! Where are you?

What about Bob and Jim? Now I am pretty sure they would fold [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks all.

Trevor

#8 09-06-2005, 02:28 PM

The turn is easier if you raise the flop.

steveyz · #9 09-06-2005, 03:11 PM

pf call is fine. I'd fold the turn as you are now drawing to 2 outs against a K.

#10 09-06-2005, 04:50 PM

But that doesnt make raising the flop correct.

D