Peeling...such a wonderful peeling...

Entity · #1 07-21-2005, 01:41 AM

Meh. Nothing special about this hand. Just curious if I'm starting to peel a bit too loosely. Simple reads: UTG will bet flops like these all day. He does not necessarily have an Ace or a draw here -- he just likes to stab at a lot of flops. He'll do the same on the turn and river unless challenged (or unless he has a real hand). I have yet to see him check the turn after betting the flop when everyone else just called on the flop.

Seems to me that A) my relative position is excellent. B) My odds are a bit thin and there are likely to be lots of draws out on this flop that can leave me hanging dry on the river when/if I hit a 5-outer. However, no one at this table is tight nor capable of laying down an Ace to a turn checkraise. Aggression at the table has also been easy to read, as it means I'm facing 2P or better in general.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, SB calls, Hero calls...

baronzeus · #2 07-21-2005, 01:46 AM

I do this every time. I wonder if this is a leak.

Catt · #3 07-21-2005, 01:59 AM

I think this is an easy peel. You're getting 7:1 closing the action. You may have the best hand (unlikely but possible given your read on UTG), but you have enough of a draw to to peel at 7:1 as is (IMHO). You're correct that hitting on the turn is subject to a number of redraws on the river, but not enough I think to turn this peel to a fold -- none of your 5 outs puts a 3-flush on the board, you hold one of the FD outs, and if someone does have a four-flush, then there's not better than ~18% chance the flush hits on the river (8/44) and slightly less if another diamond or two is out in other hands. You hit on the turn and you can C/R the entire field (who knows how big it will be). I'd be peeling here every time. It's not really a peel if the call is obvious, and I'd say this one gets pretty close to "obvious" though I'd still call it a peel.

Justin A · #4 07-21-2005, 03:41 AM

Bump because I think this is slightly interesting. I usually fold here but I haven't really thought through this type of situation much.

aK13 · #5 07-21-2005, 03:47 AM

With no chance that your 2pair/trips completes the flush, I don't mind it, although I almost never call in this spot personally -- this is certainly not an easy decision, though.

btw, lame title [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

bobbyi · #6 07-21-2005, 03:55 AM

I don't think it makes any real difference whether you call or fold here.

beachbum · #7 07-21-2005, 03:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You hit on the turn and you can C/R the entire field (who knows how big it will be).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know that I'd be C/R'ing an 8 or 3 on the turn. With the OP's relative position in the hand, C/R'ing won't eliminate players but will build a pot. Also, it opens the door to get 3 bet by a hand that's beaten you already. However, C/R'ing an 8 is a lot better than a 3 since low 2 pair on this board is far from being a monster.

Even though this pot is not huge, I think if you hit the turn you try to take it down now, or at least thin the field. Maybe UTG actually does have an Ace and will raise the turn to accomplish this.

grinin · #8 07-21-2005, 03:57 AM

I think I almost always fold this in 10/20 especially if I have 3 or more tables going

Entity · #9 07-21-2005, 10:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I almost always fold this in 10/20 especially if I have 3 or more tables going

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the number of tables should make or break the decision.

Rob

Entity · #10 07-21-2005, 10:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You hit on the turn and you can C/R the entire field (who knows how big it will be).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know that I'd be C/R'ing an 8 or 3 on the turn. With the OP's relative position in the hand, C/R'ing won't eliminate players but will build a pot. Also, it opens the door to get 3 bet by a hand that's beaten you already. However, C/R'ing an 8 is a lot better than a 3 since low 2 pair on this board is far from being a monster.

Even though this pot is not huge, I think if you hit the turn you try to take it down now, or at least thin the field. Maybe UTG actually does have an Ace and will raise the turn to accomplish this.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG wouldn't raise the turn with a bare Ace, but would bet the turn with anything. Yes, two pair is a vulnerable hand, but it's still worthwhile of a checkraise on this board given that I can't really offer it much protection. An 8 is a clear-cut checkraise, and I feel a 3 is as well, though I'm obviously treading more carefully when I turn a 3 than when I turn an 8.

Rob