I finally got to 3bet 98s !!!

[brick]

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i think thats just about the worst case scenario.

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The worst case scenario is when the most hands are 4-way, then one hand is 8-way. You're usually up against a big pair and other players often hold suited connectors that have you dominated.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1037203

Be content to play them for two bets and get creative like nate does.

[Danielih]

I made a mistake. I did not realize it was a limpreraise. I like the spot when 5 people limp in the CO raises and you 3bet on the button or something like that.

Regardless limp reraising is mandatory if you are going to be limping. Abdul has written about this in the past. If you want to limp I think you need to limpreraise with some pairs and suited connectors to throw people off. When other people have a harder time reading your hand it leads them to play suboptimally against you and you gain. It all comes down to Sklanskys fundamental theorum of poker.

For example in the 200400 holdem game at the RIO last night Player x keeps limping in with shitty hands so Player y (Both are considered to be some of the best young all around players) kept raising him and he never once limp reraised.

In that game I think limping at all was wrong but if you are going to do it then you have to limpreraise.

I am not a holdem expert but at the higher levels you have to make plays which hover around neutral EV simply to mix up your play. Tight straightforward play will not work against expert players. Then again you could still win through 400800 with careful game selection.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I made a mistake. I did not realize it was a limpreraise. I like the spot when 5 people limp in the CO raises and you 3bet on the button or something like that.

Regardless limp reraising is mandatory if you are going to be limping. Abdul has written about this in the past. If you want to limp I think you need to limpreraise with some pairs and suited connectors to throw people off. When other people have a harder time reading your hand it leads them to play suboptimally against you and you gain. It all comes down to Sklanskys fundamental theorum of poker.

For example in the 200400 holdem game at the RIO last night Player x keeps limping in with shitty hands so Player y (Both are considered to be some of the best young all around players) kept raising him and he never once limp reraised.

In that game I think limping at all was wrong but if you are going to do it then you have to limpreraise.

I am not a holdem expert but at the higher levels you have to make plays which hover around neutral EV simply to mix up your play. Tight straightforward play will not work against expert players. Then again you could still win through 400800 with careful game selection.

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the only problem i see with this is that you say it is necessary to mix it up vs. experts.

but then you say to only lrr to throw them off w/ suited connectors and pairs. basically drawing hands that can make big hands and big draws vs. a large field.

im no expert but when i see somebody lrr like i did in a pot like that i immediately assume small pairs maybe up to TT or a suited and likely connected hand. since you'd NEVER limpRR AA and big cards, or suited cards like AQs or excellent high cards (AQ/AK) its pretty safe to assume you dont have those cards in your hand. so if its a As9h3h flop and i didn't put in the last bet w/ JJ i can now use this information. i KNOW you'll check here when you miss or bet when you are drawing for ev purposes so i can BET that JJ out b/c hands liek KQ or QQ/KK may fold having to deal with your limp reraise after many players (and i hope they dont know what i know about your lrr standards) and the cap from the player behind you (which is a prerequisite to this example hand as noted previously). so even though they want to try to hit their sets, they will now be more likely to fold and i can charge you w/ fewer opponents and maybe just call the flop if you raise and reevaluate on the turn.

anyways, this is one simplistic example, but imo the mixiting up value of this LR is not nearly as strong an argument for either side as the equity vs. implied odds arguments.

-Barron

PS- i hope i got that right and am explaining it well b/c i dont feel like editing this right now.

[Nigel]

Well, you need to LRR AA etc. if you are going to LRR the other crap, otherwise the whole deception thing goes out the window.

Nigel

[Danielih]

See when I play I dont really limp. So whenever I limp I am essentially mixing up my play and people dont know what I have. Then I will limp reraise depending on the number of players , action, position yadda yadda.

The thing is If I am adopting a holdem strategy that involved a fair amount of limping then I will mix in limp reraising and if I mix in limp reraising then I will do it with AA and AQs.

I believe the counter argument is that when you limp with AA and it does not get raised behind you then you are giving up way too much EV. Well I think it all balances out and people see you limp with AA, then know you can limp reraise with it, you know you can limp reraise with any hand that you are going to play here because almost any hand you are holding is going to have an equity edge over the field.

Whether or not this is worthless rambling or not I dont know. What I can tell you for sure is that in higher limit games some people play fairly well and tight and aggresive but their hands are too easy to read. This doesnt just apply to holdem but omaha8 2-7 and other games as well. When they enter a pot and play a certain way I can put them on such a narrow range of hands they can almost never valuebet against me because I know what they have. It is also coupled with too low a bluffing frequency. Complex bluffing. Not just betting the river in a big pot when you miss. Because if your opponent is good they will know this and they will often raise or CR bluff the river on you. It depends on what level people are thinking on.

Also I think your example is far too simplistic. Trust me when I say you have no clue what kind of hand I might be holding and how I am going to play it after the flop. If the flop comes As 9h 3h and I have 8s9s I may cap it. But I might also cap it with AA and AK and 33 and 99 and KKh and QhJh JhTh and the like.

Sorry this isnt structured well nor is it much of an argument. But I can say almost certainly than an argument of pushing an equity edge preflop vs. hurting your implied odds later on is kind of silly. Situations are far too complex to be able to evaluate the merit of one vs. the other. How have all of the previous hands at the table affected how this hand is going to play out. How will your play on this given hand affect the play at the table for future hands. How will it affect how your opponents play against you in future sessions.

Also given the range of hands with which I will limp reraise with (large if I am employing this strategy) I believe the percentage of flops for which I carry on very aggresively is fairly high. So you will not easily be able to define my hand. If the flop comes A83 rainbow I may jam the flop with 56s and the next time I have 88 how are you gonna play against me. I am a maniac. You either have to put in a lot of bets and win or lose, miss a lot of bets when you do win, or fold.

Once again this is just my opinion. And I am not sure if what I am about to say is contradicted in my earlier statememts but I am not a fan of limping. After 3 limpers what are you limping with, suited connected, Axs , small to medium pairs?

Really it all depends on the game. LRR with 89s at that time could be very positive EV at the time in the game you were in. In a different game with the same situation it might be much closer to neutral EV. Poker is about your opponents, The best strategy depends on your opponents strategy and how they will react to you and how you will react to them.

Then again this is all just my opinion Im typing out without rereading.

I think the answer is, it depends.

[chief444]

FWIW, I don't really think it makes too much of a difference if you're preflop equity is slightly positive.

The implied odds are usually related to the amount you are paying to see the next round mainly those times where the immediate odds don't alone justify the price. That is, if you have a small pocket pair or whatever hand that may have X% of pot equity and you pay Y BB's to see the flop if your equity is less than you're fair share you can often justify a call by assuming implied odds of something like 10 times Y or more. But if you're X% of equity is slightly positive you're not really counting on implied odds. Obviously you're not running hot and cold simulations here so being slightly positive with preflop equity in a simulation probably means the raise is really about nuetral since you will very occasionally fold an eventual winner that would have caught a runner runner of some sort. So that's why I'm saying it probably doesn't really matter. Obviously with an increased pot size the implied odds are increased since people are tied to the flop with any piece but that works both for and against you since you want people tied to the flop when drawing to very strong hands but you will also be tied to the flop with some very weak draws at times.

So basically yes, I agree with what you're saying...that the equity outweighs the implied odds. But I'd want that equity to be a little better than neutral since, as I said it's not a simulation where you're always seeing the river (although not far from it with this pot).

Personally, I don't really like the play here to be honest. For one thing you're playing 30/60 so I'm assuming for the most part people are limping with reasonable hands compared to lower levels and that decreases your own equity slightly. Also, in this case it actually gives you're hand away somewhat, IMO, since there really isn't much you're limp/reraising with from this position other than a good multiway hand. So I think anyone arguing it's deceptive (I didn't read any responses yet but I'm assuming it's been mentioned) actually has it backwards. But the biggest thing I dislike about it is that you're sitting with some loose opponents who you generally outplay postflop. A huge pot makes their otherwise too loose postflop play correct so in that sense you're really handicapping yourself so to speak.

Chief

[SinCityGuy]

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Regardless limp reraising is mandatory if you are going to be limping. Abdul has written about this in the past. If you want to limp I think you need to limpreraise with some pairs and suited connectors to throw people off.

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You're missing a significant point here. This wasn't a limp/reraise. It was an overlimp/reraise. Abdul's stuff applies when you're the first one to enter a pot.

[Danielih]

aye you are right.