Going to war with TT...

Mathieu · #1 06-14-2005, 08:05 PM

Here I am wondering if my line of play pre-flop and on the flop was too aggressive. I would also like to hear how you guys would play this.

MP1 is LAG, he is a bit more reasonable post flop. He likes to cap whenever he opens a pot and gets reraised.

MP2 is LAG as well and could cold call a raise with any pair, and any marginal hand. Post-flop I've only seen him bluff in obvious spots.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, MP1 caps, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

I decided to 3 bet to keep the pot 3 handed. Is this standard in this spot?

The cap from MP1 did not really give me more info as I
expect him to do this with just about any hands he raised with.

Flop: (13.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

I thought there was a decent chance I was still ahead, I wanted to push out AQ or AJ. I thought these hands might fold thinking I had a K... Against 2 lags was this a silly idea? I also wanted to define my hand in one stroke.

Turn: (9.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero ..

Ah the turn check raise! I'm guessing MP2 smooth called the flop with a K. He would have reraised preflop with any pair above T. Since I haven't yet seen him pull off anything tricky on the turn, is this a clear fold? Also he has me beat even if he's overplaying an AJ. I'm getting something like 1-6.5 for calling the turn and river.

Thanks in advance.

Shillx · #2 06-14-2005, 08:11 PM

The flop raise sucks dude. It has zero purpose...sorry. Easy fold to the turn c/r.

Brad

aK13 · #3 06-14-2005, 08:25 PM

You're ahead of 0 preflop capping hands. Flop raise is atrocious.

DeathDonkey · #4 06-14-2005, 08:27 PM

He did say his opponents are LAGs so it might not be that awful. I would find a (hopefully) cheap way to showdown my hand.

-DeathDonkey

aK13 · #5 06-14-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He did say his opponents are LAGs so it might not be that awful. I would find a (hopefully) cheap way to showdown my hand.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Missed that part. Reasonable post flop, though, probably means that turn check/raise is bad news.

Mathieu · #6 06-14-2005, 08:37 PM

You say that the flop raise has zero purpose. Is this because you are convinced that none of my LAGish opponents would fold an AQ or AJ or something like JJ for 1 more bet. Folding hands like this would be tremendous for me. I think MP1 is betting this flop no matter what, sometimes to find out where he stands sometimes because he has a K, and other times because he's the preflop capper and he is supposed to bet it.

As for MP2, the only hands that beat me (on the flop) that he could have played this way are KJ,KQ, and maybe KT. All the other hands he would have most likely 3 bet preflop.

His call on the flop does not narrow down his hands to Kx, he could have 66,77,88, 99 AJ, AQ... and maybe more ridiculous stuff...

Also even if MP1 is LAG, by raising this flop I but him in a bad spot, he is stuck between me (TAG) and MP2, and he would be likely to fold hands like AQ, AJ, and maybe even JJ.

I don't deny wether or not my line was good, I just want clarifications as to why it was bad, if this is the case.

Thanks.

Shillx · #7 06-14-2005, 08:40 PM

A LAG isn't going to fold many hands on this flop. He will only ditch those that have no shot. He certainly isn't going to fold JJ or AQ or whatever.

The time to raise this flop is against a weak-tight player. He might throw away QQ or something. A LAG is more likely to 3-bet AQ then throw it away....

Brad

Edit - A better question is...would you raise AA on this flop?

Mathieu · #8 06-14-2005, 08:44 PM

OK,

I see I am getting alot of sh_t for the preflop raise. I did say that MP1 was LAG, but I also said that he will most likely cap most times that he get raised when he was the initial raiser.

So this means that his cap does not show much more strength than his opening raise . He could have ATs, AJ, 99..

Mathieu · #9 06-14-2005, 08:51 PM

Brad,

Thanks for the explanation. Maybe the description of my read was ambiguous. For me, LAGs that play like you described are Maniacs (referring to the 3 bet w AQ). I play on Paradise. Maybe the LAGs there are more timid than on Party.

Mathieu · #10 06-14-2005, 08:58 PM

On this flop I would play AA using a WA/WB line. I wouldn't be trying to fold over cards, and I would welcome lower pairs to keep calling.

What line would you recommend with TT, given what I said about my opponents' tendencies?