About overcards (long)

Nick Royale · #1 05-30-2005, 01:07 PM

So, when to keep betting overcards? When to raise on the flop with them? When to follow through on the turn? I'm going to post my thoughts and some examples. Some of the examples might seem obvious, but it's the thoughts behind my decision that are important. When I'm done with this post I've probably put a lot of effort behind it so please read it and give me some feedback.

Hand 1:
First, a hand from the micros:

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero...
Raises. The pot is too big to fold and Hero holds two weak back doors. The bettor could very well be betting a draw and in that case we love to isolate him. We might get the opportunity to take a free card on the turn.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero...
Checks. Hero won't win this pot UI often at all and with 1 cold caller from the flop a bet here has no folding equity. I'm checking to fold the river UI. If I had got it HU to the turn I would have betted every time to get a free showdown. AQ has showdown value and a bet on the turn would have folding equity. We are also charging a draw if we're ahead. I would fold to any further aggression UI.

Hand 2:
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 calls, 4 folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets, Hero...
Folds. This is a place to dump IMO. No backdoors, a very drawheavy board, risk of reverse domination, 1 player yet to act etc.

Hand 3:
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 5 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero...
It's HU so I use to bet this in a decent sized pot. The flop is ragged and completely free from possible draws. What can BB be calling with that doesn't have me beat? Sure, without a read you could argue he decided to try and get lucky, but this board is the worst possible for him to try to draw to a pair since that K must look scary. As said I use to bet, but I guess there are good arguments for checking and fold the river UI. With 2 callers from the flop the turn check would be easy. Thoughts? Would your line differ if the K was a J?

I could go on forever, but then no one would ever read this post. Now it's time for your comments. Also feel free to post your own overcard hands that you think might be relevant to this thread.

Nate tha' Great · #2 05-30-2005, 01:16 PM

I don't really get why hand 1 is a raise while hand 2 is a fold.

In terms of hand 3, the main reason to bet would be to see if we can't fold out someone holding like 98s, which would usually call last to act hoping to improve to two pair or trips but might fold we keep the pressure up. Obviously this depends alot on table image and our opponent's tendancies but I probably bet there more often than not.

Nick Royale · #3 05-30-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really get why hand 1 is a raise while hand 2 is a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: We have 2 (pretty weak) backdoors, a bigger pot, position, the other players have shown weakness. Also MP2 is more likely to valuebet a flushdraw since the field is larger.

Hand 2: I have 1 player yet to act that might have caught a piece of the flop and the bet comes from 1st position which usually indicates a stronger hand than a bet from 2nd to last.

[ QUOTE ]
In terms of hand 3, the main reason to bet would be to see if we can't fold out someone holding like 98s, which would usually call last to act hoping to improve to two pair or trips but might fold we keep the pressure up. Obviously this depends alot on table image and our opponent's tendancies but I probably bet there more often than not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I get the idea, but at the limits I usually play I don't think I'll fold a hand like 98s here often. but as you say, it's of course depending on my image and reads of the opponent.

peterchi · #4 05-30-2005, 01:45 PM

I agree with hands 1 and 2

Hand 3... yeah, I'm probably gonna check, unless I've got a read on him that he likes to try and pick up backdoor draws or something.

Also, this thread may be helpful

shant · #5 05-30-2005, 02:44 PM

Hand 1: I agree with the raise here, but if you held no diamond it would change to a call for me.

Hand 2: This may be a leak for me, but I am calling.

Hand 3: I bet.

Nick Royale · #6 05-30-2005, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I agree with the raise here, but if you held no diamond it would change to a call for me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how my line would have been if I didn't have the Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I might still raise because I think this bet might comes from a draw pretty often and I have a lot of players behind that have shown weakness, but I still don't want along for the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: I bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I always auto bet/fold this. Don't know if it's the best play though.

Isura · #7 05-30-2005, 05:41 PM

Hand 1: I'd just call the flop. We aren't folding hands that have us reverse dominated, and the board is draw heavy so it's less likely we'll get this HU. I'd say we have about 4.5 outs here.

Hand 2: I wouldn't fold here. With only 1 player behind you, we still could have the best hand, and our outs are pretty clean against all but a flush draw. I'd like to raise here more so than in hand 1.

Hand 3: This is a common and tough spot. I think the real big winners consistently make the correct decision here between betting ahd checking. I'd tend to bet this against the average player. We gain a lot when any pair folds, and I don't mind folding to a c/r here and giving up only a few good outs of equity. This spot is pretty read dependent though IMO.

Nick Royale · #8 05-30-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I wouldn't fold here. With only 1 player behind you, we still could have the best hand, and our outs are pretty clean against all but a flush draw. I'd like to raise here more so than in hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't get this. I think this is reason for making the first hand pretty much better than the second:

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: We have 2 (pretty weak) backdoors, a bigger pot, position, the other players have shown weakness. Also MP2 is more likely to valuebet a flushdraw since the field is larger.

Hand 2: I have 1 player yet to act that might have caught a piece of the flop and the bet comes from 1st position which usually indicates a stronger hand than a bet from 2nd to last.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I'd just call the flop. We aren't folding hands that have us reverse dominated, and the board is draw heavy so it's less likely we'll get this HU. I'd say we have about 4.5 outs here.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you're giving the overs in hand 1 ~3 outs (you can't possibly give the backdoors less than 1.5 in total). What makes the overs in hand 2 so much better you're willing to give them 5? I would give us at least 5.5 outs in hand 1. Not close to 5 in hand 2.

ckessel · #9 05-31-2005, 12:00 AM

I like hand 1 and 2 and the reasoning. I need to think my own missed overcard plays more in terms of backdoor draws.

Hand 3 I bet simply because so many people peel one on the flop. UTG in this case limped preflop, showed no aggression on the flop. He's acting like someone with small pockets or a missed Ax that's looking to hit the turn or fold. If he calls my turn bet though, I check/fold the river. I can't imagine any card on the river would make him fold if he called the turn with that kind of board.

Nick Royale · #10 05-31-2005, 03:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3 I bet simply because so many people peel one on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true and since I have a hard time judging when someone is just peeling one off to follow up by folding to a turn bet I end up betting all these turns. I believe you could, by looking at the board texture and adding a read on the opponent, find some cases where checking is better in these situations.