Am I destined to lose a lot of chips on this hand?

PktAcesSoWht · #1 04-02-2005, 08:17 PM

SB challenged me on almost every steal attempt eventually folding after flop bet(hmm, perhaps this was a hint I should have taken), and when I was in SB if I limped he would raise up and I would have to fold.

Would you fold to the reraise on the flop? or since the pot is t4200 and it only cost me 730 to call getting almost 4 to 1 is this an easy call?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

BB (t2845)
UTG (t775)
MP (t4250)
Hero (t3250)
SB (t2380)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t450, SB raises to t750, 1 fold, Hero calls t300.

Flop: (t1650) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t900, SB raises to t1630, Hero calls t730.

Turn: (t4910) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t4910) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t4910

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kd Jd (one pair, kings).
SB has Ks Ah (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: SB wins t4910.

theweatherman · #2 04-02-2005, 08:30 PM

Hmm, this is close in my opinion. The raise pf suggests strenght but it could just be blind defense as you mentioned. However the check raise screams of aces, but you are fairly pot commited, if he has aces you have 5 outs putting you at about 20% to win so the 4-1 odds are close plus he could be trying to buy it. So at this point i think you are destined to lose all your chips. The only thing i can think of is maybe a larger pf raise. raising 2 bb is a very weak blind steal. If you raise more like 4-5bb and he still comes over the top then you can dump the hand, but I'm still working out blind steals myself so take my advice with a grain of salt. Cheers!

SNOWBALL138 · #3 04-02-2005, 08:39 PM

2x BB steals are best for opponents who:

fold PF too much

call, and then fold to a flop bet

The other advantage to the 2Xbb steal is that it lets you get away from a hand.

Checking the flop here seems best. It makes it more likely that: 1.He will bluff
2. He will call you with a weak hand

Betting doesn't protect your hand in this spot b/c the dreaded ace overcard is already on the board.

lastchance · #4 04-02-2005, 08:58 PM

I think I push/fold preflop. I know I don't make a t900 bet that commits me to calling an all-in.

toda2 · #5 04-03-2005, 11:02 PM

Unless he has to catch a plane after this hand, he has A's. You probably need to take a deep breath and fold. It's probably close but my guess is you are not too pot commited to fold. Also, I don't think the $900 bet was correct. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

PktAcesSoWht · #6 04-11-2005, 05:40 PM

When people say to make a 3bb raise does that me 3bb pluss the BB so 150 bb is a 600 raise? because I thought when I raised 450 which is 3BB, but you guys reference only a 2BB raise.

Have I been misunderstanding that? If so that is something I need to correct because I usually do 3BB for blind steals unless it has been shown 2BB will do the job ie blind 150 raise to 450 for 3BB raise. or should it be 600?

lorinda · #7 04-11-2005, 05:51 PM

If you feel you can't fold to his reraise preflop, and the consensus will be that you shouldn't (I would), then you must only call for big-hand-value.

If you miss the flop (you missed this flop, trust me), then you must proceed with utmost caution.
There is simply no need to lose much more than 750 chips in this pot.
Your bet is not protecting your hand (If you're in front, you're miles in front now and your opponent will be terrified of this board), it is not scaring an ace and it generally serves no purpose other than to allow your opponent to take chips off you when he's ahead.

If you check this through and win, then welcome the large pot with open arms.
If you have to call a small river bet then fine, but I don't see how avoiding free cards here is clever.

Edit: Rereading your comments on him, it's possible you should have pushed preflop when he mini raised, however, I would wait to limp reraise him in the blinds.

Lori

halis123456789 · #8 04-11-2005, 06:30 PM

raising here short-handed is okay usually, but if you have been going to war with him, it might've been better to switch up and limp (then there is the chance he will raise to 450T, when he does NOT have a hand, you want to induce these kinds of errors, esp. with a player you are trying to send to the cleaners.

unfortunately it looks like he does have a hand, smells like a decent ace maybe AT, A9.

when the flop comes with an Ace in it and he checks, you check right along. if he has an ace, he now knows he's going to have to work (make it cheap) to get you to pay. also, you may spike a K,J, or diamond, what lovely cards to get for free!

and unfortunately, unlike on WPT, if you don't improve, and he shows you any amount of decent action at any point, just fold. live another day.

citanul · #9 04-11-2005, 06:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
raising here short-handed is okay usually, but if you have been going to war with him, it might've been better to switch up and limp (then there is the chance he will raise to 450T, when he does NOT have a hand, you want to induce these kinds of errors, esp. with a player you are trying to send to the cleaners.

[/ QUOTE ]

egad.

so your advice here would be to even occasionally LIMP here, hoping that the SB would raise some randomly small number, and without a hand? what is it that is your plan for post "him raising without a hand" action? are you going to push? are you going to call and then destroy him post flop? because well, while pushing may have merrits, but only if you really really really know your opponent, i think, limping, calling, and then playing post flop seems like a disasterbacle of a line. especially if you post flop play is as generally weak tight as you have implied thus far.

OP: when you get minireraised by the sb here, it is very possible you have a fold, as Lori implied. depends on what if anything you know about your opponent. but it certainly screams most of the time that you are in bad shape. i certainly wouldn't be calling there and then prepared to go broke with 2nd pair. what else to say here, hm. well, if you're going to bet 900 on the flop and then call 700 more, bet it all on the flop. unless you have a huge note on the guy the details of which i could only begin to speculate at.

i'm not loving hte 450 raise preflop, i'm not in love with calling the reraise, though it's possible you might have to call just for 2 pair/straight/flush type possibilities, considering how small it is, and i'm certainly uninspired by your line on the flop.

citanul, so to answer in short: no, you were not destined to lose a lot of chips here, you did that all by yourself.

halis123456789 · #10 04-11-2005, 07:02 PM

if he limped and then the guy raised him small with a hand like AT, A9 (say i dunno about 450T) he could've called and saw the flop for a lesser amount, or if he raised him a ton, FOLD!

and to answer your question, i said raising here is fine, but if they had been going at it for a while in the button/blinds he could have limped in to switch it up.

as far as my play, lots of people think i'm weak/tight. it's fine by me, it's not about ego.