I'm a card mechanic.

[hoterdoc]

didn't you mean "too many insecure adolescenTS"?
or was it "too MUCH insecure adolescenCE"? (which makes less sense.)
doc

[smoore]

Here, felix:

http://cardshark.us/

he makes you pay for the more advanced stuff but some stuff is free.

And by the way, most people that actually pitch cards when they deal use the "mechanics grip". I guess the other grip is "can't deal for crap" grip. I couldn't pick anyone off because of the way that they hold the deck.

The different noise isn't when they shuffle it's when they second or bottom deal. There's a slight popping noise that goes along with the "swoosh" of the card coming off. Only way to hear this noise is to either bottom deal yourself or get someone like The_Tracker to do it in front of you over and over so that you learn it's sound. I doubt if most recording/playback equipment could capture the subtle difference. In a noisy card room I don't think I'd catch it.

The big, BIG way of spotting a mechanic comes when he's building his "runt". The runt is the small stub of cards the mechanic is planning on controlling and it's the most obvious action he will perform. He's got to get the 4 or 8 or whatever cards he wants seperate from the rest of the muck for just a second so he can organize them in relation to the deck. Some signs of this may include dropping the muck on top of other cards or putting a group of cards onto the muck. Anyone who isn't completely stupid would do this while the muck is still messy and not in a square deck.

I guess it's possible someone could "double duke" you in live play but MAN they would have to be good. Basically, they would build two runts; your hand and his hand. *Then*, he's got to deal from each of these runts while giving the other players cards from somewhere else. If he was good at building runts he could probably get four into A-K-A-K on the bottom so that you got the kings and he got the aces but that's not a lock win, just an edge.

I would think that if someone was going to cheat you in a home game they would probably use a cold deck (switch the shuffled one out for a stacked one). This slight of hand is pretty simple. An amateur will probably shuffle and then stretch, ending up bringing his hands under the table. That's when they switch them. Always keep the cards above the table, please.

edit: hey, The_Tracker... as a fledgling mechanic, do you think you could learn to double duke someone in a multiway game? i.e. two runts and then center deal for the rest of the people? That seems insanely hard but I can't even false shuffle well. I'm ok with straight bottom dealing but no expert.

[FatMan]

It is not an arbritrary line. It is a big bold dark line separating the two. Cheating is illegal and the majority of players are against it. Selecting weak oppponents is legal and accepted by the majority of players. You are just trying to rationalize an illegal act.

All other players have access to the same material I have used to increase my knowledge and hopefully skill at playing poker. If they have not invested the same amount of time and effort that I have then that is their choice.

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The childish name calling and insistence on me being a gun weilding thug for practicing card mechanics ended the discussion for me.

Intelligent discussion is not possible on this forum. To many insecure adolescence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe if you didn't ignore the sound counterarguments I presented, instead deciding to focus on the flames...

[/ QUOTE ]

I see no need to continue the arguement with you. It was not my intention to debate the righteousness of card mechanics. It is cheating and we all understand that.
The thread could have gone in a diffrent direction is all.
Seems some people are actually interested in learning a bit more about it, be it to protect themselves or otherwise.

[XXXXING FISH]

solitaire

[warewulf]

[ QUOTE ]

I see no need to continue the arguement with you. It was not my intention to debate the righteousness of card mechanics. It is cheating and we all understand that.
The thread could have gone in a diffrent direction is all.
Seems some people are actually interested in learning a bit more about it, be it to protect themselves or otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, none of us are going to, in any way, justify what you're doing. We just want info on stopping people like you.

Most of the games I go to, the dealer doesn't handle the deck. It is shuffled by the last dealer, cut by a person in the middle, then handed to the new dealer. Is there any flaw in this system? Obviously if two are working together and can sit near each other. Any others?

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]

edit: hey, The_Tracker... as a fledgling mechanic, do you think you could learn to double duke someone in a multiway game? i.e. two runts and then center deal for the rest of the people? That seems insanely hard but I can't even false shuffle well. I'm ok with straight bottom dealing but no expert.

[/ QUOTE ]

This can be done by stock shuffling. If you wanted a two card stock, you place the two desired cards on top, undercut about halfway, in-jog the top card, run two less than twice the number of players, out-jog and shuffle off. Then undercut to the out-jog, forming a break at the in-jog, run one less than number of players, in-jog and shuffle off. Undercut again to in-jog and throw on top. The desired cards will now come to the dealer in the first two rounds. This obviously has to be done with a hand shuffle which is maybe not common for most home games.
This can also be done with 3, 4, or higher stocks.

[toots]

I'm not trying to rationalize cheating.

It's just that trying to rationalize poor sportsmanship then popping up and screaming cheater is a grey pot calling the kettle black.

It isn't the flaming a guy for cheating that I object to. It's trying to take a moral high ground when you're only imperceptibly higher is what I find laughable.

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I see no need to continue the arguement with you. It was not my intention to debate the righteousness of card mechanics. It is cheating and we all understand that.
The thread could have gone in a diffrent direction is all.
Seems some people are actually interested in learning a bit more about it, be it to protect themselves or otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, none of us are going to, in any way, justify what you're doing. We just want info on stopping people like you.

Most of the games I go to, the dealer doesn't handle the deck. It is shuffled by the last dealer, cut by a person in the middle, then handed to the new dealer. Is there any flaw in this system? Obviously if two are working together and can sit near each other. Any others?

[/ QUOTE ]

This eliminates alot of cheating. However, if someone is good enough, and they are gathering the muck, they could "possibly" stock or cull the deck, crimp for the proper cut and still obtain the cards of their choice. Would be difficult. Also, palming cards and holding one out is also possible. Beware of these things. Count the stub every so often to double check.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
As I noted previously, a heavyweight boxer might figure he just wants to win and therefore only chooses to fight featherweights. Just because he then follows the rules of boxing doesn't make it a fair fight.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with this analagoy is that the boxer would not, in fact, be following the rules, since the rules clearly set divisions between competitors. A similar analogy would be the real-life case of that pitcher who played on a championship Little League baseball team even though he was over the age limit. He followed all the rules of the actual game, but he did not follow the rules of the league, and thus was cheating.

Another similar example is an athlete who uses steroids. Sure, while playing they don't break any rules, but they're still cheating, right?

However, nobody would ever argue that using natural ability to its fullest is cheating. If I wanted to race Michael Johnson, and proceeded to scream "Cheat!" when I got smoked, I'd be ridiculed and my friends would desert me quickly, realizing I was a complete dumbass.

Using natural ability to gain a natural advantage is ok. Baseball players take batting practice, tennis stars study their opponent's favorite techniques, poker players study the game. Using mechanical means to gain advantage, like baseball players juicing, marathon runners taking shortcuts, and poker dealers manipulating the shuffle, is cheating.