Letter to a compulsive gamber (anonymous and long)

[sonarc]

this has been a fascinating thread to follow. There seem to be a number of interesting responses.

One aspect of disagreement seems to be whether or not players are interested in a person outside of the poker room. Someone who is interested only in the competition at that moment seems to care little about any aspect of the player outside of their playing style and bankroll, while those that care about the well being of their fellow players seem to have some emotional reaction to winning money from someone who appears as if they cannot afford to lose it.

Another interesting aspect of this conversation seems to revolve around the impact to ourselves when dealing with an addict. There seems to be general agreement that changing one's play because an addict is present at the table would be harmful to our own financial outcomes for the evening. This seems to lead those that are interested in their fellow players well being outside of the poker room to a bit of a quandry as they don't want to negatively impact their own situation to 'help' someone else, who will most likely lose the money elsewhere anyhow. For the most part, our own desires to do well seem to trump any desire to see another not do themselves harm.

Another recurring theme is the notion of self control. To me, this is perhaps the easiest to disagree with. As the quoted support group statistics show, even with help, addictions are very hard to break. Of course there are exceptions, my uncle quit smoking cold turkey, but I believe one of the characteristics of an addict is the inability to make the decision to not gamble when they cannot afford it.

I'm new to hold 'em and have never played in a casino. I used to play roulette, however, so never played against anyone. It's always each player vs. the house. I'd see players in fancy suits and expensive shoes drop a few hundred on the table, lose it in minutes, and move on. They looked like they could afford it, and were just crappy players. Then there were those that looked like they just cashed a welfare check and a casino was the last place they should be. Am I making assumptions about these people based on their appearences? Sure. The guy in the suit could be on the verge of losing his house after just losing his job and the guy who looked like a bum could have been an eccentric millionaire, but I'll stand by my assumptions.

There also seems to be general agreement on the fact that gambling addiciton is bad. No one wants to be an addict or to have their friends be addicts. The question is whether or not we have any responsibility to our fellow players, and, if so, what action can we take?

Each person has to follow their own moral compass with such decisions, and I admit that I was quite perplexed on my own opinion as I read the posts. The clarifying question to me comes back to ye good ol' golden rule:

If I were betting money I could not afford to be betting, and I was unable to make the self-preserving decision to get up from the table and leave, what would I want others to do for me?

Just to keep this discussion morally complicated, all of this can only apply to in-person games where the context of a person's behavior can be observed. It seems to go right out the window with online play (which I've never done, so I could be wrong).

May the cards (and correct judgement) be with you

[Mike]

I think the easiest way to think about the money or the addiction is where the money comes from? If I win from someone who plays every day but is not addicted, then the money is okay. If I win from an addicted gambler then I have a twinge of guilt?

So what happens when the money I win from the person who plays every day is playing on money he/she took off of an addicted gambler? It's the same as myself taking it, just once removed.

Or what if I am taking money from a fish, and the fish just robbed the local 7-11, or worse yet rolled some old woman on her way to the bank? That's what the fish is playing on, stolen money? How can I feel bad about that if I have no knowledge of it happening. It's probable that everyone of us have won stolen money at one time or another.

Once I arrived at this point, it ceased to be an issue. If we keep the game in perspective, and why we are at the table there should be no moral issue.

You go and sit and play your best game. Money does not have any memory. A twenty from a Banger spends the same as a twenty from a Doctor. Or so it should be if it's poker winnings.

Yes, no, maybe?

[kyzerjose]

Ye olde moral compass.
Geez, just when I'm starting to be comfortable playing slash and burn poker.
Sonac you speak to the soul of the issue.
I try to never knowingly harm another human being. I don't mean to say that I won't attempt to play a TAG style of poker.
So what is "harm"? Does it seem similar to the difficulty society has defining pornography? Hard to define but one knows it when one "sees" it.
If I have direct knowledge that a player is an addict, I could not take advantage of the situation.
Without direct knowledge & formal training in the field of addictive behavior, the total picture gets fuzzy.
I rely on my inner voice. We all have one. Once my "truth" is spoken to me, the path becomes clear.

[stonecold]

Losing alot of money is a common reason to take suicide. After the storm in sweden and alot of wood had been destroyed, Causing people to lose a great deal of money. Four people to their life, why cause they felt so bad about it. They certainly could live their life like a normal person but they choose to take their life. We are a country of 9 million people and when 4 of htem take their life the same day cause they lost money its kinda big.

So next time when you play this compulsive gambler who the same day will lose all his family savings and take his life in the cellar with a rope, leaving 2 kids and a wife. Please for the love of god think that if u didnt do it someone else would and that if they dont have the money they shouldnt play.

Not saying that all of them will but some do and thats a fact. We should be able to do something to help, anything at all. Giving away our money isnt right cause of obvious reasons. But to actually talk with them might i know you will say its not my business, well it is. If you love poker like i do, you must also take your responsibility to help those who cant manage their economy while playing poker.

To those who say its still not their problem you are either greedy or chickens. Now i know that some people will tell that im wrong and crazy. Thinking like this will causing the poker industry to brake apart. Well i dont believe you.

[octop]

If hes gonna piss all his money away he might being doing his kids a favor

[tek]

The people you describe in your post will find some excuse after some adverse situation to do what they will...

There is no reason to feel sorry for these people. They will self-destruct in some way. If they voluntarily sit down at the poker table, I will take their money.

As I said in one of my first posts, if these people won't pay their bills with their money, they will pay my bils with their money.

Your post advocates a loser attitude. If you gamble with that attitude, you will be too empathetic to win. If you want to be a loser in order to help another loser feel better, go ahead.

[stonecold]

I think either i wrote it wrong or you missunderstood me. I have no problem taking ppl's money at the table. My soul live for those moments. But if i see a person and i know that he/she has a problem isnt that someone I should feel like i wanna help. Maybe giving them a phone number or talking some minutes to them. If they dont wanna listen Fine. Then i cant do more for them.

Some ppl love money, I love Poker.

****
This quote is from speclj in the post "are we any better then drug dealers" and its what i wanted to say in my preaious post.
****
[ QUOTE ]
We can try and help when the opportunity presents itself, but I refuse to worry or feel bad about someone elses bad choices.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very important part. We cant just watch a human being destroy His/her life, We must try to help. If they dont want help, there is really nothing we can do about it. Just hope that someone in their family, friends or someone close to them are able to help them.

[tek]

[ QUOTE ]
I think either i wrote it wrong or you missunderstood me. I have no problem taking ppl's money at the table. My soul live for those moments. But if i see a person and i know that he/she has a problem isnt that someone I should feel like i wanna help. Maybe giving them a phone number or talking some minutes to them. If they dont wanna listen Fine. Then i cant do more for them.

Some ppl love money, I love Poker.

****
This quote is from speclj in the post "are we any better then drug dealers" and its what i wanted to say in my preaious post.
****
[ QUOTE ]
We can try and help when the opportunity presents itself, but I refuse to worry or feel bad about someone elses bad choices.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very important part. We cant just watch a human being destroy His/her life, We must try to help. If they dont want help, there is really nothing we can do about it. Just hope that someone in their family, friends or someone close to them are able to help them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, give some loser the phone number to GA and tell them how they are ruining their lives. Then report back. I predict you will be disappointed in your efforts.

To those that feel sorry for losers and think it's your job to help save them, I seriously ask: Do you not have enough family and friends to help? Why do you wish to help compulsive gambler/strangers at a poker table who will just go DAAAAHHHH when they take your money???

[stonecold]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, give some loser the phone number to GA and tell them how they are ruining their lives. Then report back. I predict you will be disappointed in your efforts.

To those that feel sorry for losers and think it's your job to help save them, I seriously ask: Do you not have enough family and friends to help? Why do you wish to help compulsive gambler/strangers at a poker table who will just go DAAAAHHHH when they take your money???

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know if the bold part is directed to me, but it was an answer at my post so i guess so. So i just wanna say:

Why would they take my money ? I take the money from those who sit at my table if the skill and luck allows me too. But i dont like your way of thinking that we should kick on people that are already on the ground.

Sure they will probably not listen and thats not much to do anything about, but it sounds like you are to much afraid to go to another human being that you dont know and confront them with their addiction- They will probably laugh and say that they doesnt have any addiction but its very sad if you tek are so greedy that u dont see the need to atleast try to help.

What if this where playing slots or craps would that be any diffrent ?

[Sophia]