JJ 20-40

[Turning Stone Pro]

I'm not surprised your hand was good, not surprised at all. If you could really muck the turn if he had raised you, then I guess I have to say 'you da man'. I just couldn't do it - your hand is too strong, and, as one poster mentioned, can improve on the river if two pair gets counterfeited.

I hope to make it out to the Commerce this year to check it all out for myself.

TSP

[skp]

[ QUOTE ]
You make the game more difficult for yourself when you show no balls by being unwilling to invest a lot of bets with a non-nut hand against a player who it is +EV to do so against. people who say "i never put X amount of bets without the nuts" are pussy and playing -EV in that spot although not as much if youre not in southern california, where this sort of crazy action on all one street thing happens to me about once every two sessions or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even assuming that you are right that poker is all anatomical (viz: having balls and not being a pussy and other sundry he-man type comments), I am not sure how taking the pussy approach makes the game more difficult.

Sure, if it is positive Ev to go 8 bets with JJ on a 763 flop, you should do it. But that requires finding someone who will go seven bets with a hand worse than JJ. Apparently, you found such a man...or a broad with plumbing...whatever. Most of us don't encounter these creatures.

I stand by my comment generally that going multiple bets in heads-up situations definitely does make the game more difficult to play which in turn leads to more errors - usually on other hands as opposed to the hand in question - and which in turn leads to minus Ev play overall.

Raising, checkraising and reraising are crucial aspects of poker in pots involving 2 or more opponents. They are way less crucial tools in heads-up spots (Of course, this comment does not apply to a heads-up game).

[mike l.]

"I stand by my comment generally that going multiple bets in heads-up situations definitely does make the game more difficult to play which in turn leads to more errors - usually on other hands as opposed to the hand in question - and which in turn leads to minus Ev play overall."

youre coming just short of saying "putting in too many bets with what favors to be the worst hand is -EV". you see that dont you? what youre saying is not worth saying. it's obvious.

this was a special case. that's what made it interesting and postable. what do you think i just go as many bets as any player wants to heads up on the flop whenever i have an okay hand?

as for all the pussy and dick talk it's about poker ego and confidence. it's a man's game, it requires eagerness to take someone's money, to f*ck someone over with lies, it's a head game. that's what makes it fun, it's deceptive macho character. im sure youre all just sipping high tea and pondering out upon the rainy cityscape there at holiday inn vancouver waiting for QQ or better, but down here we're rolling around in the heat and smog and trying to kill each other thank you very much.

[TStoneMBD]

i only read a few posts here, but TSP has this all right. you played this like f**king c**k.

[andyfox]

"im sure youre all just sipping high tea and pondering out upon the rainy cityscape there at holiday inn vancouver waiting for QQ or better"

You've evidently not played with skp before. Nor looked out your window today. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

"it's about poker ego and confidence. it's a man's game, it requires eagerness to take someone's money, to f*ck someone over with lies, it's a head game. that's what makes it fun, it's deceptive macho character."

What you describe is a boy's game. skp plays a man's game.

[skp]

I said:

"I stand by my comment generally that going multiple bets in heads-up situations definitely does make the game more difficult to play which in turn leads to more errors - usually on other hands as opposed to the hand in question - and which in turn leads to minus Ev play overall."

You then said:

[ QUOTE ]
youre coming just short of saying "putting in too many bets with what favors to be the worst hand is -EV". you see that dont you? what youre saying is not worth saying. it's obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fail to see the connection and have no idea what you are now talking about.

[ QUOTE ]
this was a special case. that's what made it interesting and postable. what do you think i just go as many bets as any player wants to heads up on the flop whenever i have an okay hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if it was that special a case, it's not something that you implied in your intial post. Of course, that didn't make me conclude that you spew chips on a routine basis but in a later post, you went on to say something to the effect that down there in la la land, these types of confrontations occur quite frequently. That is what led me to make the comment that you unnecessarily make the game more complex than it is.

[ QUOTE ]
im sure youre all just sipping high tea and pondering out upon the rainy cityscape there at holiday inn vancouver waiting for QQ or better, but down here we're rolling around in the heat and smog and trying to kill each other thank you very much.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm an onliner now but your post does make me yearn for that cup of tea at HI Van again...incidentally, the HI games were generally even looser than the Commerce games albeit I have only logged about 80 hours at the Commerce on couple of trips so I can't possibly comment with any degree of certainty.

As for confidence, I have plenty in my comfort zone i.e. up to 30/60. I do puss out when it comes to bigger games like the 80 game however as Clark would attest to but that's another matter altogether. But the point is that one does not have to flex one's muscles to show confidence. Put another way, never going 8 bets without the nuts is not a sign of meek, cowardly, and insipid play as your post seems to imply. To the contrary, doing so is indicative of brash, egotistical play although it may not necessarily be that.

[andyfox]

"if I were to try to politely say something, an argument would likely ensue, and I'd get...emotional (in what should be an emotionless game)." [emphasis added]

A snippet from a post by Josh W. The least pussified person I know.

[mike l.]

"What you describe is a boy's game. skp plays a man's game."

yes. and playing at commerce (and down here when the game is GOOD) is like playing with children. they act like children and they play with the intellect of a child. and like children they are easy to read. so you go 8 bets with them sometimes and are usually right when you do. or when i do at least.

and it amazes me how in a roomful of children you somehow seem to manage to always sit in the most adult 40-80 in the room. bad. get on the table change andy!

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
it's about poker ego and confidence. it's a man's game, it requires eagerness to take someone's money, to f*ck someone over with lies, it's a head game. that's what makes it fun, it's deceptive macho character. im sure youre all just sipping high tea and pondering out upon the rainy cityscape there at holiday inn vancouver waiting for QQ or better, but down here we're rolling around in the heat and smog and trying to kill each other thank you very much.

[/ QUOTE ]


These are some of the coolest 82 words ever strung together regarding poker. Post of the day -- hell, of the week -- in my mind.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

[mike l.]

"To the contrary, doing so is indicative of brash, egotistical play although it may not necessarily be that."

put "too often" or "without good reason" in between "so" and "it" and youve got a deal.

but that's just short of saying "playing like a maniac (very aggressive without great reason) is -EV". and we all already know that.

so it's on you, if you want, to show me how my going 8 bets here was not justified. at no time did i feel i was getting in over my head or making things more complicated then they had to be. i was just using a read and putting more bets in to try to maximize EV. i went into great detail in other posts throughout the thread to explain my thinking. could you please comment directly (not generally) on the things ive said, or will we just decide that these are issues of style that need not be reconciled or discussed further?

either way is fine with me. but there is a very short list of posters i can stand to read a sentence that starts "in general" from and you just miss the cut.