10x BB all in rule modified?

[JasonDB]

Yesterday, I found myself in the top 25 of an 820 person $30 MTT. I had just over 28,000 chips where the average stack was 20,000. However, the blinds were at 1500/3000. As such, about 2/3 of the players left fell in the 10x BB all in rule. I played TAG the entire tournament and pushed with AK utg. I was called by a pair of 10s from a bigger stack, hit my K on the turn and lost to trips on the river. I have no problem with that as "that's poker."

However, my question is ... when the blinds are high enough that 2/3 of the field is at the magic 10x level, does anyone modify their all-in strategy?

[JasonDB]

As a follow-up, I would have pushed with AK no matter what, but I played other hands differently, such as throwing away small pairs. I thought about limping with the small pairs earlier but decided against it given my chip position relative to the blinds. Any thoughts?

[Goodie54]

I've always struggled with the 10 BB rule anyways, and in this situation, I think that you can clearly save 19,000 if you make a standard raise on a steal and someone moves in.

I mean, what if you have 2000 and the blinds are 100 200, I just don't see how it makes sense to push when you may be able to save 1400 which is still enough at this level.

Peace

Goodie

[hurlyburly]

Everytime I try to follow that rule I get bit by it, so I gave up on it. I think it's a good rule for the hourly rate players who are 4-8 tabling and using pure statistics, but if you are a single table player and paying closer attention, this rule will only hurt you.

The biggest reason for sticking with the 3-4xBB raise in your situation is to avoid giving that big stack a sort of "freeroll" against you. He can make a bad call and still be alive, or get lucky and move up, while you absolutely have to win to stay alive. It also takes away your ability to play each street, so if you are a better postflop player, why give up that aspect of your game?

[rybones]

I think this is really true with low to med pocket pairs. on Sat in the 10,000 gaurenteed I was in 11 place out of 49 but still had less than the 10xbb. I got dealt 55 from co and pushed all-in. The sb was the tourney leader and he called with K,Q. of course he caught his K on the turn and I was out. Looking back, his read was that I should push any pair as I had less than 10xbb. He was right to call!

Now, here are my thoughts about playing in this situation in the future. I would love to hear feedback from any and all on the following two ideas.

1) from early postition min raise with any hand you think is playable (i.e. not monsters, but stuff you might play with a larger stack, perhaps that is A,Q for some and for others it might include 2,2). My thought here is that with less than 10xbb people will think you are committed to the pot as they know you should have pushed all in. They will/may read your min raise as a monster hand that wants action. Thus they fold unless they actually have the moster? If you get re-raised decide to go for it or not based on your read of the other player. If you get a call, play if you hit the flop or have a good read on your opp.

2) With playable hands in late postion (again, same criteria as above), raise 3xbb and hope to steal. If you get called play the same as above. Again, if you get re-raised decide to go for it or not based on your read of the other player. If you get a call, play if you hit the flop or have a good read on your opp. Now use this strategy to play out the hand that knocked me out of the 10 grand ps and I think the result would have been: sb calls, flop comes rags, sb checks, I bet, sb folds and I now have 11xbb.

Is this reasonable for the late tourney situation describe in the previous post?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Ryan

[M.B.E.]

All in when your stack is 10xBB is a guideline, not a rule. If that is your stack and you decide to play the hand but not push in preflop, you are much better off limping than making a 3xBB raise.

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, what if you have 2000 and the blinds are 100 200, I just don't see how it makes sense to push when you may be able to save 1400 which is still enough at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]
You aren't really "saving" 1400 when you fold your hand preflop getting 2:1 pot odds.

[zaxx19]

I almost never like to move in with AK there we have rehashed the reasons why that is...basically im sure im a dog if called and if I don get callers i pick up the blinds woooppdee doo...

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is really true with low to med pocket pairs. on Sat in the 10,000 gaurenteed I was in 11 place out of 49 but still had less than the 10xbb. I got dealt 55 from co and pushed all-in. The sb was the tourney leader and he called with K,Q. of course he caught his K on the turn and I was out. Looking back, his read was that I should push any pair as I had less than 10xbb. He was right to call!

[/ QUOTE ]
No, calling your allin from the small blind with KQ was probably a mistake. Generally speaking KQ is about a 1.5:1 underdog allin against the range of hands you might be raising with. You don't mention your precise stack size; you just say it was "less than the 10xbb". Okay, suppose you had 6xBB. Then (assuming no antes) the amount in the pot is 7.5xBB and the amount the SB has to call is 5.5xBB so his pot odds are only 1.36:1 when he needs around 1.5:1. Unless you were playing extremely loose, the SB's correct play was to fold KQ.

[rybones]

I agree with your post, Esp. in light of the fact that I did not give my stack size. Actually, I had just over 9xbb and the bb was 2000 with antes of 100 or 200. So yes, he did not have odds to call. However, I still think his call was correct as he had something like t235,000 and I think he knew I would push with any pair or A high as he had seen be do that before. Additionally, my read on him was that he was willing to race when given the chance. He also seemed to know when he was beat and when he was in a race. Now, we might argue over this guys play, but given his style, I think his call was right and I made the mistake by not seeing the way he was playing. I gave him the race he was looking for. Against him, I should have waited for bigger pairs. Anyway, that is my read of the situation and perhaps my read was bad.

However I am still curious as to what you think of my two lines of play for hands like 5,5? Truly, I don't know if they are well thought out or not. As of now, I like the lines I created and would love to hear the leaks in those lines. could you or anyone critique those specifics?

Thanks,

Ryan

[JasonDB]

I like your reasoning. Frankly, late in the MTTs, I hate playing much besides PPs under the gun unless I am making a gutsy steal move. However, I just felt like I needed a double up to ensure my final table status and had not been catching much in the last hour.

The only disagreement I may have with you is that I felt I could catch one of the desparate short stacks with a smaller ace. However, if I had to do it all over again, even not knowing the outcome, I probably make a 3x BB raise and try my chances with the flop.