30/60 KK

Nate tha' Great · #1 09-26-2004, 05:36 AM

30/60 Party from a couple of nights ago. Game is just great, very loose/aggro, with an average pot size comfortably over $500. I haven't seen it like this before.

I have K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the BB. UTG open-raises and a player in MP calls. I 3-bet and they both call.

Player reads:

UTG: One of the tighter players at the table, but nevertheless probably too loose and a little too aggressive. Possible he's off his game just a teensy bit based on wild table conditions. That's my impression, anyway.

MP: LAG, tricky, reads hands well, a pain in the ass when I've encountered him shorthanded but probably has a -EV strategy for the conditions at present.

Anyway, the flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet and they both call.

The turn is J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet, UTG raises, MP folds. I call.

River blank. I check and call.

Check the turn?

Fold the river?

thanks,
Nate

EDIT: Post was mislabelled "30/60 KJs".

mmcd · #2 09-26-2004, 05:41 AM

Check call the turn. Its not even close. You are going to get raised on that turn a pretty high percentage of the time. And against 2 opponents, you are probably behind. If the turn was a non-diamond low card, obviously betting would be correct.

Nate tha' Great · #3 09-26-2004, 05:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Check call the turn. Its not even close. You are going to get raised on that turn a pretty high percentage of the time. And against 2 opponents, you are probably behind. If the turn was a non-diamond low card, obviously betting would be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is probably a leak of sorts. I tend to charge full speed ahead when confused.

mmcd · #4 09-26-2004, 06:14 AM

MP: LAG, tricky, reads hands well, a pain in the ass when I've encountered him shorthanded but probably has a -EV strategy for the conditions at present.

He's real susceptible to a rope-a-dope type of strategy. If you do that a fair portion of the time, and then ram and jam with some real hands/draws sometimes, he'll get off balance and become easy to control. I've played him short like 3 or 4 times and owned him using this strategy. As soon as I first played with him in a short 15 game, he immediately reminded me of a typical LAGGY party 30 player.

That hand sounded familier so I cheated and looked it up.

ShipDaCheese · #5 09-26-2004, 07:00 PM

I would have bet out on the turn as you did. No brainer
fold when raised.

If u only was playing heads-up against either one of them,
call the raise and check call river.

Nate tha' Great · #6 09-26-2004, 07:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have bet out on the turn as you did. No brainer
fold when raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the nut flush redraw I don't think there's any way that I can fold on the turn. I'm drawing very live against everything except AA (not likely since he didn't cap preflop), AJ (certainly possible) and JJ (mathematically unlikely). But I think he'll raise here with a much wider range of hands than that.

If I had *black* KK then bet-fold would almost definitely be the best play; red KK are much different here.

ShipDaCheese · #7 09-26-2004, 07:26 PM

Sorry didn't see the flush draw (too tired). Guess the best play would be to just check call the turn and the river. However,
it is very easy to get carried away and bet the turn...

mmcd · #8 09-26-2004, 07:48 PM

If I had *black* KK then bet-fold would almost definitely be the best play; red KK are much different here.

I disagree. Against many opponents in this game, it would be be better to check the turn.

They can represent a lot of strenght with a bluff/semi-bluff
turn raise, but would be less likely to bet the turn when checked to b/c it doesn't represent much strength and they'd fear a checkraise from you. Even an moderate/mediocre A would likely check behind you here in the hopes of picking up a call on the river if you check again.

If the action goes bet-call, then I think you can safely fold. If it goes check-bet, then you might want to call depending on the opponent. If it goes bet/raise than its obviously an easy fold.

I think the turn would get checked around a fair portion of the time though, and you are not particularly worried about giving a free-card in this situation.