Checkink down an all-in player.

[Lafortezza]

Was playing in a game in my local cardroom recently. NL Hole'em freezeout. Down to the final 2 tables from about 7 full tables.
On the button holding AA. A player in early position goes all in for about 4000 on 500-1000 blinds and was called by 3 people before it reached me. I reraise all-in and got a severe talking to from several old hands at the table for not calling and checking it down to knock out the player all-in.

As it turns out the all-in player had pocket 6's.
The flop came A 6 x and the all-in player hit his one-outer quads on the turn.

With 2 tables about 14 players remaining would you do the same with AA on the button and one player all in or
would you abide by the 'knock the all-in player out' rule by checking it down?

On one side you have AA and are a big favourite over whatever the all-in player has. You want to win the blinds/all-in/calls.
On the other hand by simply calling you increase the likelyhood that the all-in player won't beat everyone but your chances of being
outdrawn for the pot are much much bigger.

Final table formed at 9 players left. Top 5 places pay out. I was just above average stack.

[Tosh]

Not reraising is just bad poker. You don't mention your stack size, depending on how big it is a non all in raise might be in order but I'm certainly reraising at least 20k more with 3 callers and 17500 sitting out there. I don't really care about knocking the player out, I want the chips.

Well played.

[MLG]

You have AA, you don't need their help knocking the player out, get your chips in the middle. You should be worried about making sure the chips go to your stack with this hand, not making sure the player gets out.

[OrangeKing]

I hate people who go out of their way to check down against an all-in player. If only 5 places pay out, I could see this play being made with 6 or 7 people left. But even then, you have AA - so you shouldn't be worried about anything else other than getting those chips for yourself.

[37offsuit]

Tell the old hands that as soon as they start bankrolling you, you will consider their advice as to how you should play your cards.

There is plenty of money in that pot to want to shut everyone else out. The only time you might want to call is if the all in was for a little over the blind, you're looking to get a side pot going after the flop (or there already is one) and you're only looking at one other player. Then you might want to try and take some extra chips off that player since he may not want to fold his hand if he hits a part of it.

Checking down is only a good idea when there are serious prize money implications should you knock out the all in player, increasing the bubble doesn't help you (if you have a big stack and several short stacks are trying to limp up the ladder) and if you don't think you have the best hand.

You shouldn't let someone else out draw you when you have the best hand just because a player is all in.

[fnurt]

All-in is the only play here. It's not a team game.

[TwoShedsJackson]

All-in of course - hi Luke [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
With 2 tables about 14 players remaining would you do the same with AA on the button and one player all in or would you abide by the 'knock the all-in player out' rule by checking it down?

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Don't believe everything the Rice Crispies tell you. There is no such rule. I'm sure the "old hands" would prefer that you not push. They would also prefer that you neither bluff nor check-raise, that you show them your hole cards, and that you fold preflop whenever you have AA.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Bluffing a dry sidepot is usually bad since there is no benefit. However, nothing is a complete bluff preflop, and AA is as far from a bluff as you can get. You benefit from raising whether the other players call or fold.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] There is almost no benefit to knocking a player out when you are far from the money, and little benefit when you are in the money. Part of the advantage of having a short stack is that bad players will call a substantial push with garbage like Q2 because they feel compelled to try to knock someone out. I would bet that a lot of the players in front of you had weak hands, and were actually helping the player with 66 more than double up.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Even if you had a much weaker hand, it might be reasonable to push. It might be reasonable to push with TT. By not raising in front of you, they probably misplayed.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] The quads would have won either way. Checking it down would have had the same result.

Depending on the stack sizes, it might be right to raise, and then push or bet the pot on any flop, but this late in the tournament it was probably right to push. Calling and checking it down would have been stupid and wrong by a lot.

[TomCollins]

I just saw an indcident of someone getting extremely angry over betting a pot with an all in player. There was a fairly sizeable pot with one player all in. The first player made top pair with a gutshot, and bet out at it, the other player folds. The top pair was good, but the player who busted (who had an Autographed Fossilman hat saying something about being friends) berates the player for his terrible decision to bet at the flop. I'm sorry, but if he kept an ace from winning the pot instead of him, more power to him.

On the other hand, I was involved in a similar pot with three players remaining. I was in the big blind, and UTG pushes all in for barely more than what my BB was. The SB calls and is about even with me. I call the small bet. We both check it down, and I win the pot with king high. There was no point in bluffing him out of the pot with my king high, since there was no side pot, so I had nothing to fight over. I pretty much had to have the best hand to win anything. In this case, the other player was smart in not betting at me, because his 8 high was not even close to beating the all in player, and he could not have won a side pot. It also helped him make an additional $5000.

So what people are not understanding is that the idea of a hand in poker is to win chips. If you have a play that helps you win chips, you usually should make it. Of course if the number of chips is insignficant, thats a special case. But if you have no chance to win chips, your secondary concern, knocking a player out and moving up in the money, takes priority. I think Fossilman needs to give his buddy a lesson. He must have taught him something since he made it to 5th place.

[eMarkM]

Oh please, tell the "old hands" to stuff it. You made the right play without question. We're not even talking about knocking out a player that would put everyone in the money. You're not even close to the money yet and you have chips you need to accumlate. Even if eliminating this guy put everyone in the money, it's still the right play. Too many chips in there and you're too big a favorite to just let them sit there for the sake of eliminating one man. It's not like you're bluffing at a dry side pot here. You have AA for christsakes with all these callers, you gotta move in.