Lets talk about tells.......

[pokerstudAA]

I was playing in a NL tournament awhile ago....I was playing against some fairly good opponents and was down to the final 6. I was in the first position in front the big blind. I looked at my pair of kings and set them down for a second. The next guy to act was already getting ready to throw some chips in the pot. He caught himself when he realized I had not acted yet. I called the big blind. He raise a large portion of his stack. Everyone folded around to me. I reraised him all in. He had A10 offsuit. My kings held out. I finished 5th after screwing a play up myself.

I have read the Caro book (which is quite helpful) but I was hoping to have some other relate their real life tell experiences with players and dead give aways......

Thanks....

[elwoodblues]

At the levels that I play (and the fact that I play on-line much more live) I think looking for betting patterns is more important than spotting tells.

[SossMan]

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At the levels that I play (and the fact that I play on-line much more live) I think looking for betting patterns is more important than spotting tells.

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I agree, but looking left is an important part of live play. On the whole, though, tells are greatly overrated, IMO.

[Manimal]

I think tells are much more helpful against weaker players - something explicitly stated in the Caro book.

There are some pretty weak players in my regular game, and they pump out tells like there's no tomorrow. When I play at the casinos, again, the weak players jsut spit out tells. Holding their hand tight when it's a monster, staring at the board for what seems like days when they've got garbage, etc.

It all depends on your read of the player, not the tell, though - you have to know what's an act, and what's a genuine tell.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I think tells are much more helpful against weaker players - something explicitly stated in the Caro book.

There are some pretty weak players in my regular game, and they pump out tells like there's no tomorrow. When I play at the casinos, again, the weak players jsut spit out tells. Holding their hand tight when it's a monster, staring at the board for what seems like days when they've got garbage, etc.

It all depends on your read of the player, not the tell, though - you have to know what's an act, and what's a genuine tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would change "weaker players" to beginner players before I agree with you. There are some truly terrible players who have played for years that don't give off tells. By and large, though, it's not all that hard to read a beginner.
Also remember what Mason says about tells. He says that for a tell to be profitable, it not only has to be accurate, but has to change the way you play the hand.

[cero_z]

Hi Manimal,
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It all depends on your read of the player, not the tell, though - you have to know what's an act, and what's a genuine tell.

[/ QUOTE ]
When I talk about "reading tells," deciding whether a player is acting is included. Watch the WPT, and you'll see that players as sophisticated as Jen Harman and Daniel Negreanu (sp?) occasionally try to sucker people with what is sometimes extremely hammy acting. Players like Phil Gordon, Paul Phillips, Alan Goehring and Michael Kinney have provided textbook examples of unconscious tells in their WPT appearances. You figure out if your opponent is acting. If he is, you figure out what your opponent wants you to do, and you disappoint him. How is that not precious as gold?

[cero_z]

Hi elwood and Soss,
I will never understand people who downplay the importance of tells at the higher limits. I guess we're going to rehash the "debate" between Mason and Caro ad infinitum, but I will say that when I travel to Vegas casinos, Tunica casinos, Atlantic City casinos, etc., I am playing 20/40 thru 40/80 limit hold'em vs. strangers, or PL/NL games where the avg. stack is around 1000 bucks. In short, most of these players are far from "beginner" status, and there are many useful tells present. These tells may allow me to win a pot or save a bet 99% accurately, when knowledge of betting patterns might lead me to the correct choice about 0-66% of the time. In the private games in which I regularly play, many players are terrible, but a few are very skilled (BB/hr winners in public 20/40s), and I have reliable tells on all of them which win me substantial money with regularity. Obviously, I assume they also have valuable tells on me. So when you play with some players regularly, the value of tells is magnified greatly. I agree that understanding betting patterns is more important (in limit poker), but that in no way means that tells are of little importance.
I suspect that the reason for the debate is that most players, even very good ones, are not very good at reading tells. If you aren't an expert in this area, it can be a lot more like guessing.

[Cohiba Al]

I've heard the "poker clack" that Caro mentions. It happens sometimes when for example the guy holding Ax suited sees the river make a 4th suited card on the board. Oh what a terrible card, he wants me to think. I dumped my queen high flush on it as saw I was right to do it!

I also enjoy watching a player stare at his cards angrily, slapping them against his other palm. Only three things happen next: the player will fold his bad hand, the player will call his monster hand (or stupidly even raise), or a few obvious chasing types will call with a bad hand. You just need to know who are the chasers and then it becomes crystal clear when to fold to the monster hands.

[Lafortezza]

The most valuable tell I've seen is if a player bets, then stares at the flop, without much bodily movement, trying not to influence/trigger your call. Lack of eye contact is another key.
The first few times I saw it I didn't identify it but just thought "This guy does *not* want a caller", and I'd call.
These days I'll raise for information if its not too costly or flat call if I've a hand that can improve to a strong hand.

Another tell I've noticed is the flamboyancy of how a player puts his chips in the pot. If he tosses them in with a flourish he doesn't have a strong hand. If he slides them in gently in a stack he's strong. Its Caro's weak=strong, strong=weak theory again.

[theKGBwins]

"The most valuable tell I've seen is if a player bets, then stares at the flop, without much bodily movement, trying not to influence/trigger your call. Lack of eye contact is another key."

While the first part is sometimes true, the eye contact statement can go both ways. Some players look away on purpose so they dont seem like they are a threat, cause they WANT your call. But then again, someone who cant look you in the eyes may be bluffing. So, its a toss up.