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#1
06-06-2004, 06:15 PM
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Should i have taken a different line of play?
Great game. Great read on the players. Pisses me off i had to leave this game early. Stuck, none the less.
My main concern here is my flop and turn play, but all comments welcome. Im including my read of the situation to see if that helps with an analysis at all. Not sure if i should include it or not, (comments on the value of that also welcome) but here goes. Mucks 10-20, nice and soft. UTG limps, could be anything. He must've lost a coin flip as usually he is raising loosely. Great to have in your game. He can get a little aggressive postflop but will slow down a bit if you play back at him. UTG+1 raises. He's been trying isolating UTG quite a bit with OK holdings. MP coldcalls. This could be any 2 suited, small pair, whatever. He's a weak coldcaller. Not really scary. Folded to me on the button I 3 bet AQo. UTG calls, UTG+1 caps!?! Slavics voice in my head that 'sometimes, they actually do get cards' [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] MP calls, i call. 4 to the flop Flop Q 7 4 r Checked around. I am betting/raising the turn on any card other than a K. If these guys had anything, they'd likely have bet it. Turn T putting 2 hearts on the board. UTG bets, Ten high at the most with this bet. UTG1 calls, I have him beat right now. MP calls. Who knows. I raise, all call. Im not in a spot to knock anyone out here with this raise, which is why, after thinking back on it, im not sure i shouldve done it and just bet the flop. River K hearts. Worst possible card i could see. UTG bets, UTG1 raises, MP folds i fold, UTG 3 bets, UTG1 calls. Results for the curious... <font color="white"> UTG had A7s for the flush, UTG1 had AJo for the rivered gutshot </font> b 
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#2
06-06-2004, 06:21 PM
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Re: Should i have taken a different line of play?
against these players, bet the flop. If you get raised then maybe they do have KK or AA, although if you know them this well you should know wether or not they wait until the turn to raise when they have AA.
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#3
06-07-2004, 02:22 AM
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Re: Should i have taken a different line of play?
[ QUOTE ]
although if you know them this well you should know wether or not they wait until the turn to raise when they have AA. [/ QUOTE ] Given their flop play, they didnt have AA or KK. They would've bet out on it. However, i figured they had 'big' cards. I would've been suprised if i bet the flop, i got c/r'd. They played very str8 forward in that manner. b
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#4
06-07-2004, 04:44 AM
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Re: Should i have taken a different line of play?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] although if you know them this well you should know wether or not they wait until the turn to raise when they have AA. [/ QUOTE ] Given their flop play, they didnt have AA or KK. They would've bet out on it. However, i figured they had 'big' cards. I would've been suprised if i bet the flop, i got c/r'd. They played very str8 forward in that manner. b [/ QUOTE ] This makes the flop play terrible. You have the best hand, what are you waiting for? Giving people shots to pick up backdoors when the flop is capped is HORRIBLE. I'm not a big S&M disciple, but what they say about trying to win big pots immediately and not getting fancy applies to this situation 100%.
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#5
06-07-2004, 09:56 AM
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Re: Should i have taken a different line of play?
[ QUOTE ]
but what they say about trying to win big pots immediately and not getting fancy applies to this situation 100%. [/ QUOTE ] 100%? I think it would be a minor miracle if i won this pot with a single flop bet. Just because you have the best hand on the flop doesnt mean you always bet it. I would most likely get all 3 callers with a flop bet here. b
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#6
06-07-2004, 03:24 PM
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Re: Should i have taken a different line of play?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] but what they say about trying to win big pots immediately and not getting fancy applies to this situation 100%. [/ QUOTE ] 100%? I think it would be a minor miracle if i won this pot with a single flop bet. Just because you have the best hand on the flop doesnt mean you always bet it. I would most likely get all 3 callers with a flop bet here. b [/ QUOTE ] Yes, 100%. You have the best hand, so your bet is +EV to begin with. Are you costing yourself more +EV bets later? I don't think so, it's hard to say. And if you're not sure, it's better making a bet when you have the best of it instead of waiting for some hypothetical +EV situation that may or may not exist later. Can you win this pot outright on the flop? Probably not. But what you can do is get AJ to fold here, or a guy with Axs (assuming he didn't pair his kicker like the opponent in this hand). Again, even if you don't, if people are willing to call with only runners as possible wins, great, make them each pay 1 sb to do so. If not, then you win a big pot right now and don't let people catch miracle cards for free. There's nothing wrong with checking a flop and making people pay on later streets in theory, but given the specifics of this hand, this is just about the worst opportunity imaginable to do so.
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#8
06-07-2004, 01:34 PM
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Re: Should i have taken a different line of play?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] although if you know them this well you should know wether or not they wait until the turn to raise when they have AA. [/ QUOTE ] Given their flop play, they didnt have AA or KK. They would've bet out on it. However, i figured they had 'big' cards. I would've been suprised if i bet the flop, i got c/r'd. They played very str8 forward in that manner. b [/ QUOTE ] This makes the flop play terrible. You have the best hand, what are you waiting for? Giving people shots to pick up backdoors when the flop is capped is HORRIBLE. I'm not a big S&M disciple, but what they say about trying to win big pots immediately and not getting fancy applies to this situation 100%. [/ QUOTE ] What do you think are his chances of winning the pot immediately with a single flop bet? If you wait until the turn, you have a chance to face people with 2 bets that would be correct to call a single bet on the flop & turn, e.g. hands like a gut-shot or middle/bottom pairs.
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#9
06-07-2004, 03:30 PM
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Re: Should i have taken a different line of play?
You're not thinking about the specifics of the hand. The hero isn't worried about a draw heavy board and no opportunity to charge people with semi-legitimate draws. Instead, there IS no legitimate draw out yet. His opponents probably don't have odds to draw to anything, so 1 small bet is enough of a price to make them make a mistake. The only way they can see the turn without making a mistake is by seeing it for free, which is exactly what the hero allowed them to do.
Imagine the consequences of the flop check if the guy with A7s had A6s instead.
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#10
06-06-2004, 10:08 PM
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Re: Should i have taken a different line of play?
Slavics voice in my head that 'sometimes, they actually do get cards'
You know the key word is sometimes. I normally remind myself of this when it's 4 bets on the turn, not no bets on the flop. This is just about the best flop "in the whole wide world" "ever" "this life" for you. Do you need QQQ to bet? No you'd probably try and slow play that. Does he have a big pair? Who cares, let him help get people out on the flop. This is the muck were people 4 bet with crap, call with crap, but can't stand it if two players jam. Jam baby jam. BTW I constantly see loose raisers loose cap in the red chip games. Yes you probably lose this hand anyway but you still need to charge them full price.
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