Party 5-10 hand.

[The Dude]

Just curious if anyone plays this hand differently.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Folded to MP1 whol limps, as does CO. <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (6 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River: (10 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

Do you call a raise or fold?

[balkii]

Yeah. I'd probably raise the flop. If SB has a good hand he might go 3-bets on the flop, and you could raise again on the turn. The K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] isn't going anywhere of course, but he might give some good action on the flop. The T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] probably chase this one the whole way, and probably even some lower hearts. Never hurts to get some coldcalls from people drawing dead.

On the end, I would have to call a raise.

[The Dude]

OK, so let me get this straight. I call a bet on the flop and turn. Now the obvious flush card comes, and I bet into 3 opponents. You really think when I'm raised someone's doing it w/ the T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or less 1 in 14 times? W/o a specific read, I think you're nuts.

[ QUOTE ]
I think I raise the flop (since most won't put me on a flush if I do that and any high heart will draw anyway.)

[/ QUOTE ]
If there were more high hearts out there, this might have more merit. But since the A and Q are on the board and I have the J, the only heart that calls a raise on the flop is the K, I think. Even as it was, it was very close for me between raising and calling.

FWIW, I'm planning to raise the river if no heart falls.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
You really think when I'm raised someone's doing it w/ the T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or less 1 in 14 times?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do.

[ QUOTE ]
W/o a specific read, I think you're nuts. [Emphasis mine.]

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this is a matter of opinion and a gut-level thing, but I certainly don't think that calling on the end when raised, getting 13:1, is "nuts." I think folding would border on "nuts," but that's just my opinion.

It would take a strong read for me to lay down on the river getting 13:1 with the second nuts. For all I know, they think I'm betting because I don't want someone to hit with their 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or whatever.

Again, if there's a raise and a re-raise, I think you can fold with a pretty clear conscience, since it will potentially get reraised and capped by the third-best hand and the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

I really wish we could figure these things out on PokerTracker. I must have dozens of hands like this in my database.

[MarkD]

Sorry, but I think a lot of this post is borderline weak tight thinking and I respect your play so not sure what to make of it but I don't like it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Unless, you are reading the player behind you as being a solid TA player than your reasoning makes a bit more sense. On party people WILL raise the T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the river much more than 1 in 14 in this spot. They will also call your raise on the flop with as little as the 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] although the 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is more likely the cut off point. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[The Dude]

I bet the river, and only the SB called. My hand was good.

I'm still not sure just calling the flop was best, but I definately like calling the turn better than raising. If 2 of the 3 higher hearts weren't on the board, then raising the flop gets better. With only one opponent to act behind, raising gets better. As it was, I'm still not completely decided.

I guess if I had no read whatsoever on my opponent, I wouldn't fold for one raise on the river. But having played with these opponents for awhile and never witnessing them getting out of line, I fold and don't feel bad about it.

BTW, MarkD - sit at my table for awhile... weak tight is definately not my problem. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] In fact, I'm working very hard to let go of hands sooner - especially when I'm the pf aggressor.

And my opponents will need more than a 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to call a flop raise. Even at Party, very few 5-10ers will call 2 cold with nothing more than the 7th nut flush draw on a 4-way monotone board.

I agree Party Poker is nuts, but let's not kid ourselves here.

[MarkD]

I think we might have played together once or twice. Not sure. I highly doubt you are weak tight though (as I think I said), and you are right about the party game but I have seen opponents make plays WORSE than calling with a 6 high flush draw on your flop.

It is much rarer at 5-10 than 2/4 though. Anyhow, I think we pretty much agree on this hand. The only debatable point to raise is on the flop.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but I think a lot of this post is borderline weak tight thinking and I respect your play so not sure what to make of it but I don't like it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Unless, you are reading the player behind you as being a solid TA player than your reasoning makes a bit more sense. On party people WILL raise the T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the river much more than 1 in 14 in this spot. They will also call your raise on the flop with as little as the 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] although the 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is more likely the cut off point. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget what i said, im drunk, THIS is perfectly what i was tinkamalinging........ mmmmmmm..... . fooooddd........
pown...

tinkamalinging = saying
man im !*#&amp;faced...

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so let me get this straight. I call a bet on the flop and turn. Now the obvious flush card comes, and I bet into 3 opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactamly. I (being a noob) would raise the flop, and prolly lose my action. but if i called the flop, i would for SHEEEZLE raise the turn. This is where you gain the most value, assuming youre not drawing dead to a higher flush, plus HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO MAKE MONEY W/O GETTING MONEY IN AS A FAV?!@?!?!?!?!



????

[adanthar]

I think I raise the flop (since most won't put me on a flush if I do that and any high heart will draw anyway.)

Since you didn't, I'd do what you did, take overcalls and call a raise on the river. If you had the T I'd fold.