Party 5/10 6 max - QQ hand - can I do any better here?

samdash · #1 05-24-2004, 04:46 PM

Any better way to play this? Probably bet the river?
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: samdash is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP raises, CO folds, Button folds, samdash 3-bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP caps, samdash calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (13 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players) 
samdash checks, UTG checks, MP bets, samdash calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players) 
samdash checks, UTG checks, MP checks.

River: (8 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players) 
samdash checks, UTG checks, MP checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB
Main Pot: 8 BB, between samdash, UTG and MP. > Pot won by samdash (8 BB).

Results in white below: 
samdash shows Qd Qh (one pair, queens).
UTG shows 3h 3s (one pair, threes).
MP shows Ts Tc (one pair, tens).
Outcome: samdash wins 8 BB.

Inthacup · #2 05-24-2004, 04:56 PM

You have a clear value bet on the river.

Did you consider check-raising the flop and leading the turn. It would put UTG to a 2 BB decision and would also give you more info on CO's hand.

Cup

samdash · #3 05-24-2004, 05:12 PM

I figured on the flop I was either way ahead or way behind and would make the most money playing passively. I agree about the river value bet, but my thinking at the time was that my 2 opponents might not have much of anything. I was fairly certain I had the best hand on the river but thought again I might make the most money if the middle player bluffed at the pot. As it turned out I *probably* would have been called by the 4 bettor's TT, but its not certain.

PassiveCaller · #4 05-24-2004, 07:36 PM

I just think you played this way too timid. Bet out the flop see what the deal is don't wait and see if someone can outdraw you if you are winning. If you aren't I think you might have found out. The turn is the time to make the realization you are really ahead or really behind here and to possibly check especially if you are afraid of check-raise but even there many times I will still bet in this situation. Just because some people may limp with K5s doesn't mean you need to crawl into your shell and check it down with that board.

That guy wanted to play his TT and could have even figured you wanted heads up with the limper and instead tried to do the same with you!

It would have been awful to see a 3 fall on the river and then you call a bet realizing that guy probably would have been out long ago but you gave him such a nice opportunity to stick around that he couldn't refuse but to see the turn and river.

Don't be a turtle crawling into his shell when one scare card is out there. You lost a few bets here that wouldn't make me happy at end of the session.

PassiveCaller · #5 05-24-2004, 05:23 PM

Why not just bet out on the flop? Check the turn... and then bet the river. Getting reraised on that flop isn't terrible for QQ especially since he'll probably shut it down on the turn with a hand that youd beat so you can safely check the turn with only an A being your real scare card and then take your value bet on the river.

samdash · #6 05-24-2004, 05:33 PM

These opponents were a little more aggressive than the typical 5/10 6 max players. I've actually found these games to contain a lot of calling stations that will limp in with K5s. It can go both ways...you also have the crowd that raises 3 limpers out of the SB with QJo. At anyrate, this opponent 4 bet me after I 3 bet out of the small blind. He could have easily had AK or a weaker king at least. But he could also have AJ or pocket 5's. I needed to get to a showdown vs. these 2 opponents and I wanted to do it in the cheapest possible way, letting them do the betting.

Inthacup · #7 05-25-2004, 12:01 PM

I needed to get to a showdown vs. these 2 opponents and I wanted to do it in the cheapest possible way, letting them do the betting.

This is the part that I disagree with. It's fine to let aggressive players do the betting for you, but this isn't the right situation for it. You're up against 2 opponents out of position. I would be very happy if I could narrow the field to just me and PFC. I think it's pretty much a guarentee that MP will bet the flop. It's certainly possible that he has a K, but I'm not convinced yet. That's why I suggested the check-raise over betting and check-calling. Suppose your hand is best and your opponents have a mix of underpairs(heh) and mid/bottom pairs. You have in the neighboorhood of 4-8 outs against you. By playing passively, you open yourself up to exactly what happened on this hand. The turn check-through was disasterous. While it gave you plenty of information, it also gave your opponents a free draw on the expensive streets.

By check-raising the flop, you force UTG to a tough decision and can gain more info on MP. To be honest, if MP 3-bets, I'd probably call and fold on the turn if he bet again, assuming I don't improve. If he's the kind of opponent that would 3-bet the flop with JJ or worse, that's a rare opponent at 5-10 SH. If he just calls your check-raise, I think your hand is good here a lot of the time, giving you an easy turn and river bet.

Cup

Requeim · #8 05-24-2004, 06:01 PM

I would raise the flop, try to get it HU and gather information. If i pick up a heartdraw on the turn or a gutterball, I'll bet. I'd like to give my opponents a chance to fold on just about every street in this kind of hand.

Otherwise, check the turn and call the river if he bets.(You can also check the turn if you think the MP is tricky enough to CR you on the turn without having a King or better)

ResidentParanoid · #9 05-24-2004, 06:30 PM

I have to find out if MP is serious on the flop here. I either bet out, or check-raise to make overcards face two bets here. If things get out of control on the flop again, then I'll take the cheap road thru the turn and river. I don't think you can get gunshy on the flop, especially against folks who don't have to have AA or KK or AK to cap the flop.

samdash · #10 05-24-2004, 06:34 PM

"overcards"?