more "minor stuff"

[Tuco]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...on_report_dc_3

C'mon guys. You will never be better at torturing people than Saddam if you don't try harder...

Tuco.

[MMMMMM]

I don't get it. Obviously these guys will be punished; some are already facing criminal charges. Does anyone really expect that there won't be a few bad apples in any organization containing hundreds of thousands of people? Yes it's disgusting and a shame and these perps deserve to be punished. So....just watch the liberals and Arabs have a field day with this. But let's keep it in perspective, OK? Compared to Saddam's abuses, this was rather mild.

To anyone that this sickened: Saddam's regime's tortures and abuses must have sickened you 1,000 times more because they were far more brutal and commonplace, right? RIGHT??? So be glad he is no longer able to do things like this and worse, and be glad that these perps are going to be punished by the US military justice system. And be glad for the Iraqi people that this sort of thing is now rare instead of commonplace in Iraq.

[Tuco]

M, you completely miss the point.

Of course Saddam was much worse. Thats obvious. But the fact is that if we are going to sit here and be disgusted by what he did, how can we point a finger and say shame on him when we do similar things? Sure, sodomizing someone with a lightbulb or broomstick is not *as* bad as some of the things that S did, but its only a matter of degree.

Tuco.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course Saddam was much worse. Thats obvious. But the fact is that if we are going to sit here and be disgusted by what he did, how can we point a finger and say shame on him when we do similar things? Sure, sodomizing someone with a lightbulb or broomstick is not *as* bad as some of the things that S did, but its only a matter of degree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Matter of degree is 90% of it in this case.

Also, and equally important, worse such horrors were institutionalized under Saddam.

I don't see why the blame shouldn't be systemic in Saddam's case and isolated to a few jerks and maybe their superiors in our case. I can't see why anyone would just call them "similar" and leave it at that. A whole system was to blame in Saddam's case; a few assh&^%# were to blame in our case. Big difference wouldn't you agree?

And of course it's inexcusable and revolting. That doesn't change how important matters of degree are, or how important complicity and participation at the highest levels is.

So I do definitely think we can and should blame Saddam and his vast Baathist party machinery and leadership for widespread tortures and murders, and also blame a few of our own jerks for serrious but lesser abuses. But those are two very different things.

[Glenn]

I think that soilders determined to be guilty of abuse should be turned over to the Iraqi authority. I think it would promote goodwill, and discourage future bad acts.

[Cyrus]

"I think that [American] soldiers determined to be guilty of abuse should be turned over to the Iraqi authority. I think it would promote goodwill, and discourage future bad acts."

Unfortunately, the United States refuses to recognize any outside jurisdiction over the behavior of its armed forces. Only American courts can judge Americans.

Even if an American soldier is caught cutting off ears off Iraqi men or setting off fire to Iraqi babies, no World Court can lay a hand on him, as such a court did with the likes of Serbian military about Kosovo. The American administration has ripped off all treaties that bind it to international jurisdiction on these matters. This is how things are, America is virtually a rogue state in the world.

Would you say that this regime of impunity can rub off the American soldiers and encourage them to engage in criminal behavior? Just a thought.

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
A whole system was to blame in Saddam's case; a few assh&^%# were to blame in our case. Big difference wouldn't you agree?


[/ QUOTE ]

It is not just a few assh#%@# to blame here. A great number of soldiers in Iraq don't have any knowledge of the Geneva Convention or what it GUARANTEES prisoners held by governments that signed the document. Thus, the result was never in doubt. No prisoner training, no Geneva education, the mass use of reservists who are unprepared for their mission. All the fault of their respective US Military divisions. So, no, I don't agree. The US "system" is to blame in this case as well.

[ QUOTE ]
So I do definitely think we can and should blame Saddam and his vast Baathist party machinery and leadership for widespread tortures and murders, and also blame a few of our own jerks for serrious but lesser abuses. But those are two very different things.



[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to the prisoners who had phosphoric liquid poured on them, or were urinated on. The amount of good you do isn't a "sum" figure. You are either good, or you are not.

Tuco.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Tuco:It is not just a few assh#%@# to blame here. A great number of soldiers in Iraq don't have any knowledge of the Geneva Convention or what it GUARANTEES prisoners held by governments that signed the document.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know this?


[ QUOTE ]
M: So I do definitely think we can and should blame Saddam and his vast Baathist party machinery and leadership for widespread tortures and murders, and also blame a few of our own jerks for serrious but lesser abuses. But those are two very different things.

Tuco: Tell that to the prisoners who had phosphoric liquid poured on them, or were urinated on. The amount of good you do isn't a "sum" figure. You are either good, or you are not.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to be weighing first and foremost those who are the transgressors. But what about from the victims' perpective? Getting beaten or urinated on is a lot less bad than getting tortured to death, right? Few victims of abuse isn't as bad as a great many victims of abuse, right? These are not even close to equivalent comparisons, from the victims' perspectives, or considering the net amounts of suffering.

What I think is happening here, in our discussion, is that a reflection of how we tend to think about such things is starting to emerge. You seem primarily focused on the transgressors--in this case the handful of US soldiers--while I seem preoccupied with the suffering of victims, and how to relieve it. I have noticed a similar difference in perspective when discussing things with Andy Fox.

[The Dude]

The abuses Sadam put people through is 100x worse than what these prisoners were put through, but that's besides the point. Don't downplay how repulsive this behavior is (or how ashamed we should be that it happened) just because someone else was worse.

There is no excuse for this behavior. Period. Don't make any apologies or excuses. No sidestepping and no downplaying. Civilized people are better than that, and if the U.S. wants to protect its image in the world, the responsible parties will face SERIOUS jail time.

[MMMMMM]

I'm not downplaying anything. But obviously the perps will be punished, and the focus should be on how much good we did in Iraq by getting rid of systemic future "100x worse" abuses.

On the other hand if the guys weren't going to be punished, or if this was a systemic US military policy, the focus should be different. But that isn't the case. This unfortunate incident should primarily serve to illuminate the benefits of getting rid of Saddam's state torture machinery, provided the miscreants are dealt with appropriately.