KTs UTG... ashamed to post this as my first hand

LAGmaniac · #1 04-30-2004, 07:12 PM

I played this one like a loose/passive weak/tight girly-man. Misplayed this on all streets and I feel like a real tool posting it but maybe it will be good for a laugh. The table was pretty loose passive so that's my only justification for playing KTs up front. I had only been at the table for about one orbit and my read on the BB was loose passive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Zero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Zero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, Zero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players) 
SB checks, BB checks, Zero bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, MP3 folds, SB folds, BB calls, Zero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players) 
BB checks, Zero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, BB calls, Zero calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (13 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players) 
BB checks, Zero bets, UTG+2 calls, BB raises, Zero folds, UTG+2 folds.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Results in white below: 
BB doesn't show.
Outcome: BB wins 17 BB. 

My conclusions:
1. 3-bet the flop and bet out the turn would have been better.
2. Better yet, fold pf and save money to buy some balls.

My questions:
What would you have done on all streets?
Given how poorly I played it, did I need to make the crying call on the river?
Do you know where I can buy some $2 balls?

Ralph Wiggum · #2 04-30-2004, 07:30 PM

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but maybe it will be good for a laugh

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Haha. Thanks for the laugh.

First, I suggest that you move down in limits, because this is really poor play. I'm no great player myself, but this is probably how I would have played it.
PF: fold (I'm done)

If I called like you did PF:
Flop: bet/call (I know I could be up against a overpair)
Turn: bet (if he raises, then I'm likely to be up against an overpair, so I fold)
River: bet (if he called the turn, not sure if he raised though)

If I called like you did up to the river:
River: bet (and fold to a raise)
I was gonna say that your river raise was wrong too, but at that point, you have no idea what he's betting. It could be overpair or overcards (maybe suited), so I don't have too much of a problem with the stab at the pot.

blackaces13 · #3 04-30-2004, 07:37 PM

This is just my opinion, take it for what its worth:

PF: I'd only call with this if it was a very loose and very passive game. Judging by 6 players to the flop for 1 bet each I think the call ended up working out.

Flop: I'd probably go for a checkraise here. I'm not sure that this is the play at all, I tend to CR a lot with TPGK in loose games. After you get raised I don't think 3 betting is good, there's a good chance you're behind and you have to dodge a lot of overcards.

Turn: This is a good card for you. I'd probably bet it and fold to a raise. A lot of players will raise a flush draw on the flop and you don't want to give a free card. Having this checked around would be terrible for you since you give any of the multiple draws and overcards a free card.

River: Pretty bad card, I don't see why you decided to bet here. Are you trying to represent a straight? Not a good plan against 2 low limit players. I'm in check call mode here and I'm expecting to lose. If its raised behind me then I'm folding.

LAGmaniac · #4 04-30-2004, 09:25 PM

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Flop: I'd probably go for a checkraise here. I'm not sure that this is the play at all, I tend to CR a lot with TPGK in loose games. After you get raised I don't think 3 betting is good, there's a good chance you're behind and you have to dodge a lot of overcards.

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I didn't go for the CR because I knew that UTG+2 would raise if I bet out and I was hoping to narrow the field. When BB called 2 cold I put him on low pair or a flush draw. I figured it was still 50/50 whether UTG+2 had me beat or was just pounding away with a hand like AK-AJ or an underpair.
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Turn: This is a good card for you. I'd probably bet it and fold to a raise. A lot of players will raise a flush draw on the flop and you don't want to give a free card. Having this checked around would be terrible for you since you give any of the multiple draws and overcards a free card.

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You're right about betting the turn. I don't like the stop and go however so that's why I think 3-betting the flop and betting the turn is the best play. If the flop gets capped or the turn gets raised I can get away from from this hand knowing I'm beat. If it doesn't get I can feel more confident in my reads.
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River: Pretty bad card, I don't see why you decided to bet here. Are you trying to represent a straight? Not a good plan against 2 low limit players. I'm in check call mode here and I'm expecting to lose. If its raised behind me then I'm folding.

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Yeah horrible bet. The hands I put my opponents on (overcards, or flush draw) won't call anyway. An underpair might call given how weakly I played it, but had I played it more aggresively until the river, I would definitely go into check/call mode here. And no I wasn't trying to represent anything on the river, just putting in a value bet with no value. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Dynasty · #5 04-30-2004, 09:52 PM

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If the flop gets capped or the turn gets raised I can get away from from this hand knowing I'm beat.

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Folding this hand for one additional bet on the turn is a mistake. You are usually drawing to five outs against the pre-flop raiser.

LAGmaniac · #6 04-30-2004, 09:59 PM

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If the flop gets capped or the turn gets raised I can get away from from this hand knowing I'm beat.

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Folding this hand for one additional bet on the turn is a mistake. You are usually drawing to five outs against the pre-flop raiser.

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Good point, I would have to call, but only if the BB folded right?

Edit: Actually I think I call even if the BB calls two cold. He could very well be on a flush draw and his extra 2BB only makes the odds greater for me to complete.

Mike Gallo · #7 04-30-2004, 07:51 PM

Preflop I often play this hand in a loose passive game. No shame there.

I would have check raised the flop if I wanted to proceed with the hand. Depending on my opponents subesquent actions I would play it accordingly from there.

Welcome aboard. I do not think you played it that bad. The initial raiser most likely had A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] with another high [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] the BB most likely had a 4

I might have called on the end depending on how tricky BB plays.

Alobar · #8 04-30-2004, 08:18 PM

KTs in a loose passive game is ok to limp with. Anyone who wouldn't play this hand when they most likely can see the flop multiway for a bet, isn't adjusting to game conditions and is just playing rigidly by what they read in a book.

A check raise on the flop is going to give you more info on what the PF raiser has, but I think I bet out, your hand is very vunerable and if UTG+2 raises it hopefully forces overcards out. I just call the raise.

I bet out the turn, a free card is suicide here, if I'm raised I'm done with the hand.

If all had gone well so far, I normally would bet the river, even tho the river card is ugly. but if UTG+2 has overcards he prolly just folds, and BB looks like a flush draw so he prolly folds as well. I don't see much hope of worse hands calling you unless maybe BB has been calling with a pair. I check and give utg+2 a chance to bluff and then call.

The way you played the hand, no way am I betting this river, you have no idea where you're at, You're not making a better hand fold, and you're just going to get raised if you're beat.

I don't think you played the hand all that horrible, don't get down on yourself. Keep posting them and you'll get better.

Dynasty · #9 04-30-2004, 08:18 PM

I would always play KTs UTG in a 2-4 game and can't remember the last time I folded it in a 20-40 game.

When you flop top pair of Tens with KTs and you are out of position against a pre-flop raiser, the hand is going to be difficult to play.

There are different options for playing the flop but you simply are not going to fold on either the flop or turn as long as you think you have 5 outs when you are behind. The pot is too big to fold a 5-outer.

The only questionable play was your river bet which was at least a scary enough bet that UTG+2 only called with what I read as a better hand.

Ed Miller · #10 05-01-2004, 06:01 AM

The only questionable play was your river bet which was at least a scary enough bet that UTG+2 only called with what I read as a better hand.

Ya, that's why I like the bet. He bets the four-straight, so he's not going to get raised by an overpair. Of course, that assumes that if he does get raised, he can safely fold.