50-100 - Is having a third nut good?

[Pipedream]

Mediocre 50-100 live, full table. I raise Utg with T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Utg+1, a loose player wearing a cowboy hat and shades thinking he's good, coldcalls. A few rounds earlier he coldcalled one of my EP raises with AA but he's also reraised me with 77 and 43s. His range of hands here is very wide. The blinds call and we see a four-way flop.

Flop-A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to me and I bet. Cowboy raises, others fold, I call.

Now, in a situation like this, do you find it best to just check and call to the river, folding if you don't hit your diamond? Do you bet if you hit your flush? I personally hate drawing to a hand if I can't feel comfortable raising it.

Sidenote: This player is passive with drawing hands. I've seen him simply check and call with nut flush draws and fold if he doesn't hit. This makes it less likely he's on a pure draw.

[Gamblor]

First of all, raising UTG at that table with TT was not the best idea, as you're going to get 3-4 callers who will call because they have position on you and will try their damndest to push you off a pot.

There were many players who would call EP raises in the blinds and then lead at any flop. That's what happened in the hand where Action Jackson in the 4 seat made his backdoor flush: I raised from MP with AJs, and he called in the BB. Flop was A76 with a club. He bet, I called. Turn was 2c. He bet, I raised, he called. River was Jc, He check-raises me and flips KcTc.

Moral: what do you do with TT, when the A flops and you get bet into, against 5 players who cold-called raises, and may potentially raise behind?

I don't think his range is that wide: here's why.

He thinks he's good

This guy cracked me up. He's got a severe case of FPS. He reraised with marginal hands, but only called with top hands.

I had him on AKs, AQs, or any other type of hand that could stand the barrage of cold-callers that he knew his call would bring along. Any lesser hand he thought best he would reraise - 99,88,JJ. The first time he cold-called (with AA) he was in the cutoff and your open raise was from CO-1, thus disguising his hand against only one or two potential callers behind him. But UTG+1, he can't afford to only cold-call your raise, as he knows a cold-call will entice other calls, and he doesn't want to take his AA against 6 callers (unlike a certain Gucci-dogtag wearing Asian tipping $10/hand)

So, I don't mind the third nut draw, but the pf raise was not a good idea with TT against a potential 3-4 opponents.

With a UTG raise, in that game you'd either win the blinds or more likely, get involved with 4-5 players multiway. In my mind, not a good idea with TT, see HPFAP for a similar example on JJ. While this game wasn't consistently loose, there were times when almost at random suddenly 4 cold-callers would see a flop, and some real wild play emerged.

Then, amazingly, it would all die down again on the next hand.

Even more amazingly were those two guys (Frankie and the guy in the Team Canada hat) who simply didn't play each other.

Frankie was stuck 2 racks of greens and at one point, he raised pre-flop, TeamCanada called, flop came QJ9, frankie bet, TeamCanada just called and turned over the nuts for the table. Frankie mucked his hand before the dealer ran out the turn and river.

[Ulysses]

With a UTG raise, in that game you'd either win the blinds or more likely, get involved with 4-5 players multiway. In my mind, not a good idea with TT, see HPFAP for a similar example on JJ.

OK. Here's the hold'em game. I get TT or JJ UTG every time and raise. Every time I either win the blinds or 4 to 5 players call my raise. I'm in.

[Gamblor]

No problem winning the blinds, and that certainly is enough to make raising worthwhile.

But when the cold-callers aren't totally out to lunch, i.e. calling with hands that have a reasonable shot against TT; QJs, AJs, KQ-type hands, and play reasonably after the flop, things change (obviously, you're hoping that they have each others' outs)

Most are also capable of laying down to a limp-reraise when it's two cold back to them, so in this case it's limp and limp-reraise if it's raised behind.

In a hand, I limp-reraised with 99 and got heads up against a ABC button, and won with a flop bet to a K32 flop.

Limp will give you huge implied odds because this wasn't a fear-the-limp-reraise-with-AA-type table; a limp will invite a limp-fest behind, but a raise will likely mean you have to survive the river unimproved often enough to make raising first in a bad idea.

This table was moderately loose preflop, tough postflop.

It all depends on the game you're in.

[J_V]

yeah but when you get 4-5 players, they are out of lunch. Good hands aren't dealt often enough.

[AJo Go All In]

not that i don't agree with you, but this doesn't really convince me that raising is right. of course you are in because JJ is a wildly profitable hand you would be rich very soon if you were dealt it every time. that doesn't mean that you wouldn't make more by limping.

[Gamblor]

that doesn't mean that you wouldn't make more by limping.

That's what I've been saying. While I still think raising first in is the right play, the considerations I raise are certainly an issue.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
While I still think raising first in is the right play

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Much of the discussion in this thread is in response to your initial statements:

First of all, raising UTG at that table with TT was not the best idea,

the pf raise was not a good idea with TT against a potential 3-4 opponents.

With a UTG raise, in that game you'd either win the blinds or more likely, get involved with 4-5 players multiway. In my mind, not a good idea with TT

[Vehn]

6 months ago I feared the day that you decided you were good enough to lecture us all on mid limit poker and now it appears it has arrived.

[Clarkmeister]

I disagree with Gamblor about the preflop raise. They are more than welcome to pay 2 bets to take the flop with me when I have the 5th best hand in Holdem. It doesn't "play poorly" against 3 players, I think that's simply bunk, hogwash, 2+2 urban legend.

As for the hand, yes, I basically am calling down. The pot is big, my flush is likely good, and if it isn't, my tens might be good. I've posted it before, but never fold a 4-flush headsup in these spots.