Offsuit Connector in BB

[josie_wales]

Hey all,

I am in a Party Poker $1BB Game. I am in the BB and there are 3 total callers to me including the SB. I have 7-8o and just sat down one orbit ago.

FLOP ($4): 8-8-k rainbow.

I ($60) lead out for pot of $4 trying to represent a "take it down on the flop bet", and hoping to get called.... butget raised to $8 by MP2 ($220), other two fold.


At this point, I figure him for a K, so I min-raise to $12 to keep him in. He calls

TURN: $28: 7-(8-8-K) two hearts now, and I am full.

I decide to check for two reasons. In the one orbit I was here, as well as a few past sessions with this fellow, he is agressive and I thought there was a chance that he would be into me and I could call and pop him on the river. If he did NOT bet, I would decide on the turn what to do dependent on the final card.

He checks it through.

Turn: 8 (8-8-k-7-8) - And I got Quads.

I think what my best option is. I put him on some kind of a weak king as her limped Preflop. With his stack ($200+) I think he will surely call a just about any sized bet from my stack ($48ish) with the 8 over K boat. (hopefully)

If he DOES NOT have the K, he wont call any bet reasonable bet. A small bet of <$5-10 he MIGHT call, but I want more.

So, I decide to push ($48) figuring that if he has the K, he will be more likely to call this bet than, say a $20 bet.

REASON: A $20 looks like I am underbetting the pot begging for a call

An all-in looks like I really DO NOT have the 8. Maybe a K or a bluff. And thus, he will have to call.

Also, If he will call $20, he will probably call $48 hoping for at least a split.

I am not the best writer so I hope that this expresses what I was thinking.

What do you think of my play on this hand?

JW

[Richie Rich]

I think an all-in is fine for the reasons you already mentioned. A "value bet" is too suspicious...you want to make it seem like you're trying to push your opponent off the pot. If he has a K, then he is likely to call, since he already "invested" $12 into the pot on the flop, not to mention his PF bet. He wants to get some of that back!

However, I think your only mistake may have been re-raising him back to 12 on the flop. If I were your opponent, I would think you're trying to convey the message that you've REALLY got the 8 with a decent kicker (and weren't just trying to buy the pot on the flop). So when a third one fell on the river, he may actually be willing to lay this one down if he isn't a LAG.

[josie_wales]

Rich,

I was thinking that too (as far as raising)

I think I wanted to see if he limped with A8s.

Not sure about that raise, that is why I am asking.

Also, asking about the push on the river...Is that bad cause it will just force him out OR is it ok (in the long run) for the reasons that I mentioned?

JW

[Richie Rich]

If you hadn't re-raised him on the flop, I think your all-in move on the river with quads (in hopes that he'll call with the losing boat) is a fine move. Especially at Party!

One more thing to take into account -- who is your opponent? Is he weak-tight, loose aggro, etc.? And what is your opponent's read of you? I don't think you can say there is one universal move that has a higher +EV. Sometimes the value bet will be more profitable (against tight players), and other times the all-in with be better (against loose players).

If you don't have PokerTracker, yet, then I HIGHLY recommend you make the best $55 investment you will have ever made. This will enable you to keep notes on all of your opponents, where you can measure which players are weaker/tighter/stronger/looser...this will make your value bet vs. push all in decisions a lot easier. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[pokerexplorer.com]

Why is that Richy

[Garland]

Imagine him in his spot: He has a King (there's nothing else there except for an 8, which by the river you know is impossible). You represent a K. He thinks he has a better kicker (or perhaps KK!) otherwise there's no other reason to be in the pot (except for AA).

The turn comes a 7. No reason to believe it helped anyone. You checked and he naturally checked with his K in fear of your potential 8.

The river comes an 8 giving you the improbable quads. Unless your opponent is incredibly weak, I definitely think you should bet and bet big here. Go all-in. He'll call thinking it's chop-chop.

Garland

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I think your reasoning is geared to really bad players and won't translate into tougher games. Around 1/2 the time at $1BB when the board pairs on the flop and you get 2 people or more raising/calling one of them floped trips or a FH.

The higher you go the more likely it is you need a FH or quads to win the pot if it makes it to showdown.

That said, You'll get calls from lone K on this board at this level given your read on your guy. Given his call to your min raise on the flop he has a hand he wants to showdown, because there should be no doubt in his mind you have a hand thats pretty strong.

You gave away its strength with your minraise back to him, in fact even a call to his raise should give away your strength.

If folding after getting called on the flop and then bet into on a paired board is weak-tight when you only have 2 pair. I'm the weak-tight poster child. I will never believe this is +EV situation to call down another bet EVEN if the case 8 comes on the river.

MarkV.

[Garland]

You're right. I'm assuming this is an amateur game with it being a $1/$2 Blind structure.

But what was the other clue that the other player will call? He called the mini-reraise on the flop, which is a no-no by any reasonable player. Poor players will make this call (unless he has KK as was trapping). So, he'll also make the call on the river thinking the kicker is no longer in effect and it's basically chop-chop. He played his hand like a sucker, and he'll pay off like a sucker too.

My advice changes with the conditions. I think in this case, he should push to get the maximum value.

Garland

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I agree he'll call. He thinks his hand has showdown value otherwise he would never have called the flop reraise.

MarkV.

[josie_wales]

Well, several of you were right in that he did call.

Had a K.

JW