best hand in Omaha 8 hi/low

[gmunny]

My friends have a little disagreement over the best starting hand in Omaha hi/lo 8 qualifier. I think A2sA3s is the best, but they think AKsA2s is better, since it is geared to the high hand in case there are no qualifiers. Now both hands have a pair of aces and both hands have 2 nut flush draws, but I though AA23 is good cause it not only gives you 3 cards to the nut low, but it also gives you more outs for a straight, which can also scoop. Thanks for any help.
G$

[daryn]

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is the best hand.


obviously the suits are not particular.

[Iceman]

[ QUOTE ]
My friends have a little disagreement over the best starting hand in Omaha hi/lo 8 qualifier. I think A2sA3s is the best, but they think AKsA2s is better, since it is geared to the high hand in case there are no qualifiers. Now both hands have a pair of aces and both hands have 2 nut flush draws, but I though AA23 is good cause it not only gives you 3 cards to the nut low, but it also gives you more outs for a straight, which can also scoop. Thanks for any help.
G$

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The combinations AK and K2 are worth very little, far less than a backup nut low card. A2sA3s is much better in limit Omaha-8.

In pot-limit Omaha-8 you can make the case for AKsK2s being a better hand if the money is deep, since it has a better chance to scoop or 3/4 a huge pot. Hitting a set with AA23 will kill your action in pot-limit.

[tiltboy]

Bill Boston's simulations in his book on O/8 show AA23ds to be the best hand. It is followed by AA24ds and then AA23s. AAK2ds comes in at 23rd.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Bill Boston's simulations in his book on O/8 show AA23ds to be the best hand. It is followed by AA24ds and then AA23s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tiltboy - Yes. Interesting. He shows AA23s with a "hand rank" of #3, yet AA25d has a higher "hand value."

It's a moot point, because I'm certainly going to be playing both of the hands (and also A2KKd), but I think I'd rather hold a hand that has higher value than one that has a higher rank. What do you think?

The other thing is Boston's simulations are for a tight table - unlike most typical tables I encounter in Los Angeles County casinos. I like double suited aces with a wheel card (AAWXd) very, very much in these typical pre-flop-loose L.A. games - better than A23Xs. What do you think?

Buzz

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bill Boston's simulations in his book on O/8 show AA23ds to be the best hand. It is followed by AA24ds and then AA23s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tiltboy - Yes. Interesting. He shows AA23s with a "hand rank" of #3, yet AA25d has a higher "hand value."

It's a moot point, because I'm certainly going to be playing both of the hands (and also A2KKd), but I think I'd rather hold a hand that has higher value than one that has a higher rank. What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]
My understanding was that hand rank was based on how often a particular hand won while hand value was based on how much it won. I agree with you that I'm going to play both those hands preflop regardless of position or bets to me but I think if I had to choose I'm going to go with the double suited hand because of the 'flush factor' as Boston refers to it. There are so many suited pairs of cards dealt in a 10 handed game I really like having the double nut flush draw because if you hit, you generally get paid off by lots of players and may even get raised by an aggressive king-high flush holder.

[ QUOTE ]

The other thing is Boston's simulations are for a tight table - unlike most typical tables I encounter in Los Angeles County casinos. I like double suited aces with a wheel card (AAWXd) very, very much in these typical pre-flop-loose L.A. games - better than A23Xs. What do you think?

Buzz


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I've only played Omaha/8 a few times in an B&M cardroom but I've played probably 25k hands at Paradise then Party and my experience is that these games probably bear little resemblance whatsoever to Boston's simulations. I actually made a rare venture up into a $10/20 game at Party the other day (typically I play $5/10 or 3/6) because the average pot size was over $300 and it looked like the percent seeing the flop must have been over 70%.

[Buzz]

gmunny - AA23d is a better hand than AA2Kd. Here are some reasons why:

1. A king is nice as a kicker and adds value to a hand when you hold a single ace - but when you have a pair of aces you can’t use a kicker. (Obviously you can’t use a three as a kicker either - the point is that the king doesn’t add value as a kicker when you have a pair of aces).

2. A suited ace is a nice combination. You hope to get paid off, especially by someone with a suited king, when you make the nut flush - but when you have the suited king yourself, this ain’t gonna happen.

3. AK is not a particularly good drawing combination for a straight. You need QJTXX on the board to make the nut straight. By contrast, KQ may make the nut straight with AJTXX or JT9XX, QJ may make the nut straight with AKTXX, KT9XX or T98XX, and JT may make the nut straight with AKQXX, KQ9XX, Q98XX, or 987XX.

A23 makes more straights than A2K. (A45XX, 245XX, 345XX, 456XX compared to 345XX and TJQXX)

4. The trey works with the ace and also the deuce to make a straight. By contrast the king only works with the ace to make a straight.

5. When the board has either an ace or a two, unless it also has 345, AA2K is not the nuts for low. By contrast, when the board has either an ace or a two, AA23 may still be (probably is) the nuts for low.

You’d rather have a king when there is a pair of kings on the board than have a trey when there are a pair of treys on the board. (But when there is also an ace on the board it doesn’t make any difference). You only see a pair of kings on the board (and no ace) about one time out of forty three, when you have one king plus a pair of aces in your hand. 1/43 hardly makes up for the advantages of having a trey instead of a king.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[gmunny]

That makes a lot of sense..Thanks Buzz and the others who replied. I never heard of Boston's book for Omaha. Do you recommend it? I want to by a book for Omaha and Omaha 8 and was thinking of either Ray Zee's High-Low Split Poker or Bob Ciaffone's Omaha Holdem Poker. Any recommendations? Thanks.
G$

[tiltboy]

My preference is Zee's book, then Ciaffone's book (especially if you also play straight Omaha) even though the section on O/8 is small, then Boston's book, then, well, that's it. I also have the Cloutier and Smith books and, while there is often something of value in every book on poker I think I've read, IMO, these were not worth what I paid for them.

[Buzz]

gmunny - There's a huge difference between Omhaha-8 and Omaha-high-only in terms of strategy. Except that you use exactly two cards from your hand in each case, thinking about how to play is simply not the same for the two games.

That's just my opinion.

If you live in Los Angeles, I think you want to concentrate on Omaha-8. Except for some private games and r.g.p. events, I've never seen Omaha-high dealt in a Los Angeles casino. Omaha-8, on the other hand thrives here, at least in low limit games.

Therefore I recommend you get books devoted to Omaha-8, rather than books that mix Omaha-high concepts and Omaha-8 concepts (like the Ciaffone book does).

The Zee book, in my humble opinion, is the best. Second best, is the Krieger-Tanner book. Most of the Boston book is wasted, going through hand after hand that seems unplayable. And he only lists about a third of the possible 16432 distinctly different Omaha-8 hands, leaving one wondering how hands like A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], for example, fare, and giving simulation results for
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (that's A27Ks) but not for A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. (Those hands don't play the same.

But in spite of these serious flaws, I'm happy I have Boston's book. Very helpful, in spite of the serious flaws.

And I learned something from the Ciaffone book that made it worth the purchase price also.

I'd get killed using Cappelletti's strategy, but it seems to work for him, and it made interesting reading.

I got the Hellmuth book just for the Omaha-8 portion. I don't recommend it.

Just my opinion.

Buzz





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