Trying something new : KK in the CO

GuyOnTilt · #1 03-14-2004, 06:05 PM

Sitting at an incredibly soft 15 game online. Typically 5 to the flop and 3 to the river. Gotta love it.

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, MP limps, LMP limps, and I raise with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB and BB both call and all the limpers call. 7 to the flop for 14 SB's.

Flop comes: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

MP and LMP are the only players who aren't very passive. All check to me and I check.

Turn comes: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

Checked to MP who bets, LMP calls, I raise. All fold to MP who calls. LMP folds. HU to the river for 12 BB's.

River comes: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img][Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

He checks, I bet, he calls.

How'd I do?

GoT

Enon · #2 03-14-2004, 07:17 PM

Hmm, I really don't like this play at all.

If this was done for value (gaining a few extra bets on the turn that would make up for the lost ones on the flop) then I think it was wrong.

You gave up 1.5-2.5 big bets (i.e. 3-5 callers) on the flop for what turned out to be 3 BB on the turn with the added risk of someone sucking out on you. Had you bet on the flop, I'm guessing you would have picked up 2 BB and another 2 callers on the turn for a total of 4BB for both the flop and turn, while decreasing the risk of someone sucking out on you. Of course, I'm assuming at least 2 people would call your turn bet after a flop bet because of your description of the game.

As a value play, it might have worked if you believed you could trap many callers in between with your raise but you risked only having a late position player bet it and your raise knocked out almost everyone. To make this play worthwhile, I think it would require at least 3 callers on the turn. In this situation you may get a total of 5 or 6 big bets from them but you still risk losing the pot.

If not a value play, I have a hard time believing this was deception play for future hands. What does this play gain you on future hands, especially against online players who pay less attention?

ENON

p.s. This is the guy you met at the Hideaway who you gave excellent advice to download pokertracker. Hi.

chesspain · #3 03-14-2004, 08:37 PM

This play comes from the "Playing in Loose Games" section from HEFAP, under the subsection "When The Pot Gets Big." In summary, GoT did not check the flop in order to trap players for more bets later on. He checked the flop hoping that one of the aggressive players to act before him would bet on the turn, which would allow him to raise and increase the likelihood that he could thin the field by making those with weak draws fold rather than call two big bets cold, which increases his chances of winning this already large pot.

chesspain · #4 03-14-2004, 07:22 PM

I like it--although it's a little scarier trying this when you have KK and not AA. However, in preparation for the responses from those in our audience who don't like this subsection from HEFAP, GoT is advised to immediatately slip into his flame-retardant suit. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

astroglide · #5 03-14-2004, 07:53 PM

i'm not a fan. i'd rather bet the whole way and have them call the whole way.

GuyOnTilt · #6 03-14-2004, 10:37 PM

i'm not a fan. i'd rather bet the whole way and have them call the whole way.

That's actually what I was trying to avoid.

GoT

legend42 · #7 03-14-2004, 09:07 PM

I don't like it for a bunch of reasons. In your typical soft games, deception just isn't worth it. You can make every move in the world to scream big overpair, and they'll still call with the same crap that they would have anyway.

For many players, when a LP pre-flop raiser checks behind on the flop, it raises a red flag. Then, when a blank hits the turn and you raise, usually that means you flopped a monster, and you'll lose some players that otherwise might have called you down with their pairs, hoping you just had overcards.

And some of these guys even like to check-raise you on the flop with their top pair, to test your strength. I prefer to just pound with it (or call their flop check-raise if they try it, and raise the turn) and watch them call me down with their top pair anyway.

Then there's the problem of not knowing when you're beat. When you've clearly represented a big overpair, and a non-tricky player still check-raises the turn (especially if other players are still involved) you can be pretty sure they got you beat.

But say you play it like you did, checking behind on the flop. Then somebody bets the turn, you raise, and they 3-bet. Here, your deception has hurt you. Maybe you did fool them with your flop check, and they're making this move simply with top pair. Or maybe they hit 2 pair- or a gutshot straight or a small flopped set- but you'll be in the dark, because you haven't properly represented your hand. You also let all sorts of backdoor draws in for free.

So in a nutshell, I say get the money in while you have the best of it. The bad players will call you anyway, and the good players will read the move for what it is. The only thing it might be good for is in regular games, getting you free cards when you do miss the flop with just overcards. But not online.

GuyOnTilt · #8 03-14-2004, 10:42 PM

I don't think you understand the reason for my flop check. It has nothing to do with deception. It's for 2 reasons: the chance to limit the field on the turn, and pot manipulation. Checking the flop gives me a much better chance at winning this pot. The question is whether that offsets the money I'm losing by not betting the flop and getting the inevitable 4-6 callers.

If I bet the flop, I get a ton of callers and the pot is then almost 20 SB's. Then I'm checked to again on the turn, and anybody with aboslutely ANYTHING is going to have the odds to correctly call my single bet. I'm going to have 3 or 4 players seeing the river against me because the pot is so inflated, and my hand has basically no chance of improvement. But if I check the flop, I'm hoping that either MP or LMP will bet the turn, and I can raise. This will do two things for me: 1) the pot is considerably smaller, so my opponents will not be as apt to continue with marginal hands such as bottom pair, overcard kicker, or a gutshot draw, and 2) they will be forced to call 2 bets instead of 1.

There's no question that betting the flop is +EV. The question is whether checking has higher EV.

GoT

TimTimSalabim · #9 03-14-2004, 11:38 PM

If someone beats you with something like KJ, you're gonna regret not betting the flop. But I suppose that would be the exception.

This strategy was discussed in another thread not long ago. It would be interesting to see a simulation run on it.

GuyOnTilt · #10 03-14-2004, 11:56 PM

Hey Tim,

If someone beats you with something like KJ, you're gonna regret not betting the flop. But I suppose that would be the exception.

KJ isn't folding the flop if I bet for one bet.

This strategy was discussed in another thread not long ago. It would be interesting to see a simulation run on it.

Could you give me a link. I must've missed the thread.

GoT