Lets talk more about poker for a living

[absentx]

There has been a lot of discussion lately about poker for a living and what it takes and yadda yadda. Well as we have all heard from other people who have tried it, or the expert opinions of Al Schoonmaker, it is not the ideal lifestyle, and it can be very risky.

By the way I completely agree with Mr. Schoonmaker on this, and I think "The psychology of Poker" is a great read, and it covers what I am about to talk about.

So here is my take on Poker for a living, or in this case for making your current living better! I have a full time job right now, Its great, I go to work, do stupid tasks and I get a nice salary, bonus potential and twenty days of vacation a year. I like it, it pays for my rent, my car, savings, and I can even use some of the money to help me build a poker steak.

But what I like even better than my job, is that everynight(or if I choose every night, I may not play everynight) I come home and turn on the computer and log on to Ultimate Bet and I grind it out. I have tons of fun, and I make some extra cash. Then on Friday nights i might head to Foxwoods for some live play, and I love that too.

Hell sometimes I bet I play poker 40 hours a week! So that means I am working 40 hours in a normal job and playing poker just as much....and I love it! Poker is great, I have even got myself out of some trouble with credit cards thanks to some of the extra money I have made playing cards.

Could I ask for a better way to make extra money than from my regular job? I know that salary will always be there as long as I have my degree and a job. That is going to pay my bills and keep me secure, and what the hell, If I unfortunately run into the three month "run from hell" and I need to beef up the steak a little bit, then fine I have the income to derive that from.

Even better, now if I get fired or lose my job, I have a poker Bankroll to keep me going until I find another job.

My point in all of this is that, poker is a fantabulous way to make some extra cash and even get ahead financially, there is no reason to quit your day job, there are plenty of hours in the week to play cards and be just as good of a player as a regular pro. And I am not discrediting pros at all, i think that is damn fantabulous that you can keep it going that way, more power to ya. Look,you get your money from your job and you bring in extra money doing something you love! It doesnt get any better! If you want to take a long vacation, or if you get laid off, fine, at least you have some savings and a nice bankroll to live off of for awhile.

I think a lot of times people look to becoming a pro as the pinnacle of their poker playing. Well, you can have a great time working your poker job from 5-9 and your regular job from 9-5.

Everyone have a nice day, I will be playing 5-10 on UB

[Jaqk]

Hey, that's a very fine post. Gives a lot of comfort to one who sometimes feels lousy about all these hours spent doing stupid tasks just to cash out a nice salary, and who occasionally dreams of a life as a poker pro. Well put.

[Lawrence Ng]

I know a few good pros who have been playing live B&M poker for years. Bottom line is that if you can you can play well, you can make money. However, it's a true grind and only few can stand the pressure, emotions, swings of being a full time pro.

Let's face it, the pressure is even more immense when you are using your poker income to pay your rent, expenses and whatever else you use your poker income to cover.

I will not disagree that poker is a fantastic secondary source of income, like any good investment. But making a primary source of income is just too much for me to handle pyschologically.

Before I started my full time job over 2 years ago, I was playing poker a lot and my game was as bad as it could be. I was constantly worried about losing. This seriously hindered my play and EV.

I got lucky and landed myself a very nice full time job that I truly love that provided a great income, benefits, bonuses and a health package. I am single, so I have no family, thus I do not have a lot of expenses. As a result, I was able to save a nice bankroll within a few months of working.

Basically I told myself one thing. Poker money stays in poker and goes nowhere else. If I lose it, so be it. I'll build another bankroll. But if I win, I'm not going to go around and spend it. To this day, after 2 years I have a bankroll in poker that would make easily cover my living expenses for 3 years if I lost my job. This and the fact that every month I have savings from my primary source of income.

I do not worry about losing anymore. Some nights I lose up to 50 to 60 BB in B&M rooms, but the only thing I think about it how well I played my hands.

True enough, my part time hourly rate in poker succeeds my hourly rate at work. But not once have I ever thought about quitting my day job that I love to play poker full time. As Dr. Al puts it, I just don't have the emotional bankroll for it.

Ironically enough, the best thing that helps me with my poker game is getting away from poker. Having a balanced and healthy life are just two important aspects that have helped me reach my goal in becoming a much better poker player in the long run.

Now do I ever intend on using my bankroll wisely for something. I sure do. But then again, it will cloud my judgement and game at the table and I don't want to do that. As I mentioned before, poker money will stay in poker..for now. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Hope this helps you wannabee pros out there.

[Nate tha' Great]

Good post. Like pretty much everything, pro v. amateur is as much of a spectrum as anything else. In a couple of weeks, I'll be leaving my corporate job, which I don't like, for something considerably lower paying but considerably more gratifying. I'm expecting to make enough income from poker in order to make up the difference between the two salaries. So, while I'd be very reluctant to use poker as a sole source of income, the game has already facilitated a substantial improvement in my quality of life.

[Al Schoonmaker]

You're supported the central point of my "Don't quit your day job." As a full time career poker is a poor choice. It is too insecure. But, if you have a straight job to cover your basic living expenses, medical benefits, and retirement funds, poker is a GREAT "second job."
You play when you want, or don't play if you don't feel like it. Full time pros often have to go to work, just like people with straight jobs, because the rent is due or the car needs to be fixed. Because they have to play, even if the game is bad or they are not at their best, their win rate is often much lower than it would be if they could be more selective. S&M have made that point about win rate and selectivity many times.
To other people reading this thread.
If you're thinking of being a pro, I urge you to work as a part time one for at least a year, preferably indefinitely. When you see the other pros leaving the profession, often with their tails between their legs, you'll be glad you kept a more balanced life.
Regards,
Al

[whiskeytown]

I concur with both of your posts....I've been saying the same thing for months....great part time job....scary full timer...

and then I'll win the WSOP, and then I'll retire, then I'll go back to playing 20 buck tourneys...LOL

RB

[IlliniRyRy]

I agree with Al. I have a couple friends just out of college that are doing quite well with poker as their sole source of income, but I think it's psychological torture for them, just as it was for me in the few months that I tried it out full-time. Although it may be absolutely clear that you can beat the game you're playing over the long haul, it's impossible to avoid serious downswings and if you have nothing to back yourself up when the hard times hit, you could really be screwed if you have any regular expenses. I'm 24, I have no expenses, and I have a decent job, and it's still excruciating when I can't make any money. I rely more on poker for income than anything else, but I put a lot of value in security. Plus, I mean let's face it, this isn't your typical job, how will it look when you're out there trying to qualify for a mortgage or car loan when you tell them you're a professional poker player? I still think there is plenty of time in a 24 hour day to go to work and play poker.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Being a full time poker player does not just hurt you when you apply for a mortgage. It also greatly reduces your chances when you apply for any responsible job. There was a thread here a month or more ago about mentioning poker during job interviews. The consensus of opinion was that it should not be mentioned. Most employers look negatively at poker, even in our TV era.
But, if you have done nothing else for a few years, you have to mention something. If you say, "I've been a full time poker player," most employers are not going to think, "This person is disciplined and knows how to manage risk." They are going to say, "Thanks for coming in. We'll keep your resume on file."
Regards,
Al

[jwvdcw]

Al, I respect your opinions a lot, but I question why you are so adamently against players becoming pros. It seems to me like you are always highlighting the negative aspects, which I will admit there are a lot of them, while paying no mind whatsoever to the numerous positive aspects of it such as more time to spend with your family, freedom, etc.

Sorry if this is too personal....but did you or someone you know well have a very bad experience playing as a pro/

[CrisBrown]

Hi jw,

I can't speak for Al, so I'll speak for myself.

As I've said, I play poker as a 2nd job. On my good months, I net about $2000, which is a great second job to me. So far this month, I'm up about $500 ... but it was $1000 just this morning. I think that, by and large, I played pretty well today, with a couple of miscues in the mix. Still, what with long-odds draws falling all over my opponents all day, I took a significant emotional knock. By the end of the day, I felt as if I were on auto-lose mode. In my last tourney of the day (a $215 SNG which took more than an hour to fill), I was gone in 15 minutes when KK lost to AK, QQ lost to AJo, and ATs caught nothing vs. 44. (I guess playing Ace-high only works for other people vs. my pocket pairs.)

These kinds of days are not hugely unusual for a poker player. In fact, they're more common than the I-could-win-with-any-two-cards days that feel so wonderful. I'll take a day or two off to get rid of the negative emotions, then I'll win that $500 back ... and with interest. That's not denial. It's knowing what I'm capable of, and resolving to do it.

But I hate losing -- more than I hate losing money, I hate LOSING, period -- and a day like today takes a lot out of me, emotionally. If this were my sole source of income, I think it would be even more devastating. I'm glad to have my writing career as a stabilizing influence on my emotions when a crappy poker day happens, just as I'm glad to have poker as a stabilizing influence when writing feels like pulling hens' teeth.

Cris