True (?) Poker

[Stagemusic]

Posted by Mike Haven:

[ QUOTE ]
Now that some water has passed under the bridge, and temperatures have cooled, I have decided to stick my head above the parapet again and give my considered solution, which, I believe, is the fairest possible to all parties, taking various points from all corners, for the reasons that will be explained below.

A good number of Team Members have been chatting in the Pooh-Bahs' Private Forum, and we have been reading all the relevant open posts. (Thank you very much, everyone, for taking the time to express your thoughts in this matter.)

While there is no fix that is agreed 100% by all, (nor even 10% by some), this is the gist of the possible solution that I have put to Mr True-man. (I have received no communications from True since the Tourney.)

The immediate refund of all Entry Fees was perhaps a mistake, albeit understandable, in the circumstances.

However, it was effected, and is obviously irreversible.

The cost to True was approximately $850, (85 x $22 Entry Fees, less 85 x $2 Early Bird Rebates and 85 x $10 Play Rebates, already agreed).

There are a number of Players who will not be able to or do not wish to play in a Replay Tournament, whether it's for 85 or 34 players. If the 34-player Tournament is played and some of these Players were high in chips at the fated Break, then it can only be thought that their voluntary or forced exclusion from the Replay must be unfair on them.

Therefore, this leads to the certain conclusion that the first Tournament can only be looked at as a completed Event.

One way to deal with a completed Event is to call it a non-Event and refund all Entry Fees. This was the course that was chosen by True, but, perhaps, too hastily, under the expected and perceived pressure from an important group of customers.

Another way to deal with a completed Event is to take the prize fund and distribute it equitably among the Players remaining at the moment when serious problems commenced, and it this method that we wish to be considered by True.

In our case, it is "lucky" that we have an almost
universally agreed problem-commencement-point of immediately after the Break, when 34 Players remained.

We assume that True will know how many chips out of the 85000 in play that each of the 34 Players held at that point.

There was a prize fund of $1700, so each chip in play was worth $0.02.

We propose that every Player should be given $0.02 for every chip they held immediately after the Break.

Also, the four "Winners" should be given an additional ex gratia Prize of $50 each.

The four "Runners-Up" should be given an additional ex gratia Prize of $25 each.

The 26 other Players should be given an additional ex gratia Prize of $10 each.

Therefore, the total extra cost to True would be:

85 x $10 = $850
4 x $50 = $200
4 x $25 = $100
26 x $10 = $260

Total extra cost to True = $1,410

This concludes the Completed Event scenario.

Finally, with respect to the Team Challenge side of things, True should hold a semi-Freeroll Tournament at 8.30pmEST next Thursday, 12th February, for all Players.

This would be another $20+$2 Event, but the $10 Play Rebate would carry forward - anyone who had already earned it prior to the last game would receive it again, and anyone new earning it by playing 100 raked ring hands by the starting time of the game would also receive it.

A $2 Early Bird Rebate for Players registering by midnight on Tuesday, 10th February, would apply.

As a final olive branch to us, and as a "pot sweetener", instead of their usually offered Bonuses, True would add an additional $5 per Player to the Prize Fund.

In other words, if we have three Teams of twenty Players each, it should cost us $10 each to play a 60-man Tournament with a Prize Fund of $1500.

New Team Members would be allowed to play.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't want to reply to the old thread because it had degenerated into a Yank vs Brit thing so my apologies to Mike for just copying his statement into this thread. It has been almost a week since the fiasco and not one word from True Poker. To me, this is inexcusable. There were some viable solutions given to the organization and Mike has worked hard on this one. True chooses to not respond. Maybe they think returning the buy ins was enough. We disagree of course but they could have come on to tell us. This shows an utter disregard for those of us on this forum. Some word should have come. We at 2+2 enjoy a certain amount of "clout" in the online community. I hope they realize that. Many of our members pay thousands of dollars each year in rake to these sites. We also have a habit of playing at those sites that support our community. Someone ask the The Gaming Club guy how much in rake they made by hosting the OIC. Poker Stars has always supported our KOTZ and other special tournaments.

6 days is quite long enough. It's a simple decision and should have been made the next day. David, if this is it, just say so. Then we can make a decision on whether we choose to continue to support your site. I regret to say that the answer at this point is probably NO. Quite frankly, you have messed this up beyond belief. Not because the tournament failed. We realize that stuff like this happens. But because you fail to recognize the importance of making it right. Let me put it this way...

At least 87 people were adversly affected by your inaction. The solution Mike proposed would have cost you around $1400 up front. If those 87 people were satisfied and happy with your site they would have kept playing there and contributed rake. Those same 87 people would have had to contribute only $16.10 each in rake over the next couple of months for you to be even. Anything else would have been icing on the cake. As it is, if only half of those people are upset and refuse to return, you lose those rakes forever. Not a very good business decision in my opinion. If you add to that the fact that we are a pesky bunch and have no problem whatsoever in telling anyone who will listen (and even those who won't) the problems we have had. Please don't underestimate us. You have probably been lurking and starting to breathe a sigh of relief because no one has said anything in a couple of days. Guess what..our memories and our grudges both last quite long.

To my fellow 2+2 members. I am proposing that we give True Poker until Thursday to make a decision and either contact Mike Haven or post on this forum his decision and the reasons why. If we have no response at that time we agree to an immediate BOYCOTT OF THE TRUE POKER SITE

Many of us have already pulled our money out of the site but I am also calling for us to discuss with anyone, the problems that happened and the lack of support.

There is still time to correct a bad decision. We all make mistakes and forgiveness is easy. The rest is up to you.

[Styles]

First, this is not targeted at any one person, especially Mike Haven. I will expand on that further down.

My interpretation of the events is that TrueCEO thinks he did make not only an acceptable resolution but an accepted resolution:

<ul type="square">
He took responsibility and apologized
He made a full refund of the tourney's $22 fee and we accepted (I cashed it out, didn't everyone else?)
He stated that in addition True would hold a FreeRoll equal to the prize pool
He left it to us to decide who and when the freeroll would be (IE those making the break or the field).[/list]
Basically, he touched all the bases that any business would be expected to do and yet most don't.

As that resolution was perceived as more than fair to some and less than fair to others, Mike proposed a new solution. It and TruePoker and TrueCEO have been bandied about.

Mike is trying to make the most people happy with the solution. His attempt at a new solution that makes more people happy than the one we have is admirable and is extremely wise and fair IMHO. Yet, it's important to recognize that in business (and especially if someone is a former lawyer) this new resolution would be perceived as a renegotiation. As the poster here characterized it "a bad decision" but alas a decision. Not only is that not absolutely required, it would piss most people off. This is made particularly clear from the comments of many posters, that that if the roles were reversed they do not have restraint and professionalism required to navigate resolution.

There is some responsibility we all have to take here. Many people spoke out as though they were individual customers, and we really aren't.

If we are going to continue with this sort of organized effort we really need to decide if we are bunch of loosely aligned individual hooligans or if we are going to be happy with a representive. I personally hope that The BOSS and the The KOTZ are showing some leadership here. They should be "Team Captains" and be assisting Mike. IMHO that would have included tackling certain people that flew off the handle for the good of everyone involved.

If you look at TrueCeo's background realize to him "No response, is a response whether by error or omission". No other company would even entertain us and now the one that did won't respond to emails or threads.

Seems pretty clear to me. Perhaps the Probability Forum could address the success of a boycott and/or the odds that this one is "over".

FWIW I have cashed out, but, that should be an individual decision each of us makes for multiple reasons. Mine was not simply the Zoo vs Boss Tourney. In addition, dragging 2+2 into a boycott of an online poker site with which they are partnered seems like a slap in the face to our hosts (S&amp;M). Anyone is obviously free to boycott whomever but start your own domain and use your own resources do to so, OR get clearance from the business where you are using the services seems pretty basic.

Just my opinion. This has run it's course. Accept and Move on. Forgiveness is admirable too.

[Stagemusic]

Stylish,

I am going to disagree here. I am afraid that my attitude comes not from what True proposed but from their stunning lack of communication since then. I think that what was proposed was fair enough, if there is no room to negotiate. However, there has been no follow up since. That is where my problem lies. As to whether there is a boycott or not, I really don't care. I choose to no longer play there. I don't care if we organize or not. I'm too young to have been there during the great boycotts of the 60's...well, I was alive but not particularly politically active in grade school.

One other comment. Leadership does not come from a title whether it is BOSS or KOTZ. It comes from a willingness to step up and show the way.

[Styles]

Ok, I'll disagree back.

TrueCEO didn't 'propose' anything nor must he. He must decide and act. He did. I'm sure he thought that was fair and the end of it. They refunded the buy-in immediately. Usually when some people think they got too much and some people think they got too little, that means a good compromise was found [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I agree on the leadership thing, that was my point. You must have read that differently. I think I was asking shouldn't they step-up and control their individual teams and get one voice. IE there was an issue about counting the team points raised but neither "Team" seemed to be much of a "Team". JMO.

[Graham]

I think both stagemusic and stylish are right, minor tweaks aside.

Talk of boycott is premature. Trueman has usually been very good at communicating with this forum. Of course he does it mainly with TruePoker business interest primarily in mind, but he's done these things in a way that is very much in our interests too; extra add-ons, bounty bonuses, early bird rebates etc etc. More than any other site. Plus, any site operator willing to sign up at a competitors site to play in one of the KotZ tourneys definitely gets brownie points in my book. I don't think we should snub a place that gives us goodies...or my name's gaaabbyyy.

That's one side of it.

On the other side, I am puzzled, like Stagemusic is, by the non-appearance of Trueman since the great debacle. True made their instant refund and freeroll offer, but no word since, not even to say "Hello we're still here".

Perhaps True thought that that was enough - money back and a free rerun. The trouble is, that's only $22, despite the annoyance and detraction from real earning potential caused to the players. Most everyone in these tourneys takes time (and lots of concentration/attention - via chatting, posting, razzing each other both pre and during tourney) away from real money-earning games to play these intra-2+2 tourneys. Because they're a special event for us. True offered a product for this event, knowing this; but we were let down (I say we, but I didn't make it into the tourney this time. I'm meaning the Zoo/SS/Toons collectively, in this case).

[censored] happens. Yes. But it was TruePoker's [censored] that failed - when they were getting the 2+2 crowd over there for their commercial gain - and the players involved lost more than just a $22 entry and an early bird rebate .

In the past, Trueman has been a very communicative and willing to join in kind of person, though. ...Hey, he puts up funnier posts sometimes than most of you lot! So I'm stumped why he hasn't shown face, esp to Mike H, who deserves better.

(...Maybe he's too busy wailing and gnashing his teeth over the True software letting everyone down to have dared show his face yet...)

Anyway, we shouldn't get on our high horses too much just because we know that poker sites realise we can bring some "clout" - or should that be "rake-inducing-presence" - along with our loud-mouthed, bawdy, witty, obnoxious and puerile attitudes [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

But say hello and join in, Mr Trueman...

[Graham]

Doh! Not paying enough attention. Mike H did just get message from Trueman.

[Mike Haven]

This is just to hold speculation for a few hours.

I have received Mr Gzesh's reply, (some good, some not so good), in the last few minutes, and will post full details as soon as I have clarified some things.

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
This is just to hold speculation for a few hours.

I have received Mr Gzesh's reply, (some good, some not so good), in the last few minutes, and will post full details as soon as I have clarified some things.


[/ QUOTE ]

bah! so much for 'odds' ... another damn suckout [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[morgant]

[Mike Haven]

(In case anyone missed this post in another thread, I'll repost it in this more relevant thread.)

I'm sorry I have taken so long to give you the news, but after I received Mr Gzesh's e-mail this morning I wrote back with comments/suggestions/questions, but he seems to have disappeared again.

However, the good news is he has agreed to pay out at least $1700 more to the 34 "finalists", with probable $50 bonuses to the four "winners".

The bad news is, he wanted to play the replacement Tourney next Thursday. (Obviously this is out, because of KOTZ.)

Once he replies to my follow-up e-mail, we should know for certain the conclusion to this mess.

I am still hoping to replay the Tourney tomorrow evening, even if there are only forty or sixty Players, because I cannot imagine being able to keep Players' interests alive for another two weeks.