Wilson TTH System Pre-Flop Strategy

[brianmarc]

After reading that C. Moneymaker practiced with the Wilson system I've been working extensively with it to improve my HE skills. One major strategy all the TTH Advisors have is that you ALWAYS open-bet with a raise. I have not seen explicitly anywhere else (and I've read the dozen or so top books on the game). Truth is, in using this approach in games all the way from 3/6 up to 30/60, it seems to work since it immediately establishes you as an extremely aggressive player, and, since the TTH rules are also very tight, I have learned to play nerveless TA quite rapidly. However, this approach requires you to be extremely disciplined when your flops miss, particularly in EP’s, and that you not auto-bet as the player with the lead. (In the lower limits of the games I play the pre-flop raiser will bet 90%+ of the time if no-one has already bet. It’s so common that check-raising on any decent hand is a no-brainer if you sit to the open-raiser’s left.).

I am interested in comments from the community regarding this 100% open-raise strategy. If you don’t agree, what hands would you simply call with when first to bet.

[astroglide]

moneymaker should be your role model if you're aspiring to be mediocre and lucky. as for always open-raising, i think it gives up far too much in specific game types. if it's really loose, not limping utg w/88 or Axs is handing out money.

[brianmarc]

"moneymaker should be your role model if you're aspiring to be mediocre and lucky."
1: I don't think I said CM is a desired role model (he plays tourneys; I play limit; he plays face poker; I play online. 2. I mentioned him only as an intro as to how I found out about TTH - so let's take him out of the conversation.

"As for always open-raising, i think it gives up far too much in specific game types. if it's really loose, not limping utg w/88 or Axs is handing out money."
An excellent point. An adjustment I have already made, among others.

[JellyFishy]

You are saying you play online, in loose-passive games.

Multiway hands go up in value in such a game. Legit hands go down. The main reason you raise preflop is to short the pot besides adding more money in.

So to "always" openraise:

1: You cannot short the pot much in loose games even with high hand.

2: You cannot raise with Multiway hands like 9,8s which are good enough only to limp in these games to hope for a draw. Forget about super multiway and developing aggressive image. No sense in shorting the pot if you want multiway action!

3: So you give up on the multiway hands that make these games much more profitable than Tight Aggressive??

TTH is a training tool for beginners. It will not make you play like a pro or play like Chris Moneymaker.
To play like a pro you need to read "Theory of Poker" for starters.
To play like Chris Moneymaker you need to read "Fundamentals of poker" eventually.

[brianmarc]

Thanks for your comments. I believe you are correct. BTW: I have read TOP several times; as well as The Psychiology of Poker (Schoonmaker); Middel Limit HE (Ciaffone); Winning Poker for Serious Player (Silberstang); Inside Poker Mind (Feeney); HEP for Advanced Players (S&M). So I'm aware of all the theory. Problem is, the games I play in bear little resemblace to the games most of this material is directed to. Players are poor to awful and sinc eit's online, there is little concern or ability for pattern recognition nor hand reading.

[SA125]

Re: the competition in your games.
Good article on Cardplayer.com this month about being 5 steps ahead of players who are 1 step ahead.

I responded in a post how I raised from MP with AKs and lost to a flop of K-10-3 by a guy who cold called with 10-3s.

I then got flamed by a guy who misguidedly referenced Doyle Brunson's wins with 10-2 at the WSOP. Apples and oranges.

Open raising all the time? In those games that are being played by the seat of the pants, stick to solid play and changing gears.

[sweetzer]

I used to only open raise, under the theory that in early position, I want to either raise or fold. However, the more I read of Sklansky, Cooke, etc. this was not how they were playing, nor how most Vegas 20-40 (my limit) pros play. I have grudingly (sp) swithed to limping in with certain hands, although I still think that it reveals a lot about my hand.

Interestingly, I played 20-40 with CM the other night at the Mirage and he was very unassuming, very personable, and played a very solid game. An interesting effect was that that evening was by far the most social and polite game that I have seen there, likely due to his presence. Of course that will change rapidly if he becomes a regular.

[brianmarc]

"This was not how they were playing, nor how most Vegas 20-40 (my limit) pros play"

Very interesting. I'd be interested in hearing from you what the exceptions to open-raise are. Astro has already identified a couple obvious ones: mid-pairs and modest Axs UTG.

[astroglide]

the problem is that if there is an extremely narrow class of hands you limp with, it's easy to place you on a hand. online this is not really a problem because of the large number of opponents (many of whom do not pay attention). if you play a game with regulars, it can be very bad. for this reason, it becomes more imperative to mix up your play (injecting limp-reraising, slowplaying, etc) as often as necessary to throw them off of your scent. that is, of course, if the regulars pay attention.

[brianmarc]

Astro: Right on - my games are so fluid and fast-paced that it's close to impossible for anyone to detect patterns. Also, I play under many different names, so pattern detection is effectively a non-issue. With this in mind, I'd be really intrested in hearing form you about other hands you'd add to the limping list.