vegas trip report

[leon]

I went "home" from Nov 22- 30th. I use quotes b/c my parents live there so it's not just a random vacation spot for me, and I've been out many times in the last year so I'm getting to know other aspects of the town, not just the strip and the major poker rooms :grin:

The first session was at the Bellagio. I signed up for both the 15 and 30, intending to play the 30. It actually looked better than the 15 but I got called for the 15 first, which actually ended up being a pretty good game. My usual experience with the 15 has not been too favorable- I've seen good games there, but they're usually not great. OFten the 30 looks better, although more loose aggressive. I played for about 4 hrs and booked 500$ winner. One hand of no real significance came up-

Guy to my immediate left is also from back East. I recognized him from somewhere, told him as such and he said he often plays at foxwoods which is my usual stomping ground. I can't recall playing against him specifically but the face is certainly familiar. Anyway, today he's raising light and playing any ace. He's actually doing quite well, having hit some cards. He open limps in middle, I'm next with AK and pop him, and I clear everyone out but him. The flop comes rainbow rags and he check calls my bet. The turn is nothing but puts two clubs out there, he checks and calls again, but says, "man, here's another donation". I honestly believe him here. He'd lead out with a pair. I'm having trouble putting him on a hand, but suspect he picked up a draw on the turn. Of course I have no idea what he called my flop bet with. River comes a 10 and he checks, I reach for some chips (I was going to bet my AK, not knowing if I wanted a call or a fold) but he beats me to his stack. He does this not as a threat, as in, "don't you dare bet b/c I'm going to call", but rather like "wow he's betting again, and I guess I have to pay it off". Huh. OK sir, if you have to "pay it off" you can beat me. He wasn't even looking at me the whole time. I checked behind. He had 106 sooted, called the flop with no pair no draw, picked up a flush draw on the turn, and rivered a 10. Sigh. That's life I guess. I still cashed out a good win so I can't complain.

On Mon I met up with pokerbabe at the Mirage 20 game. Last May Tommy, Babe and myself got to play together in this game. Not the best game selection if you will but good company. Anyway, this time we're sans Tommy. I sit 10/20 first until I get called for the 20 and manage to lose two stacks in 30 min. When I get to the 20 the babe is stuck probably about 4-500$. It's a good game but pretty loose aggressive. If you get sucked out on or play the wrong pot you can get the hurt put on you pretty badly. One gentleman was down to the felt when I sat down and 30 min later he had almost 4 racks in front of him, not from me thankfully :grin: The babe fights her way back with some nice hands and nice play and is now booking a winner. I'm up too, courtesy of probably two hands.

One- I open raise with AJ sooted and get 4 cold callers, including the BB. This is pretty typical for the way the game was playing. 10.5 sb on the flop, which comes K 10 rag. I don't detect any real strength from my opponents. Furthermore, people have generally been waiting to the turn to pop it, and if I check and someone bets I'm going to call with my gutterball anyways. I am the preflop aggressor so I fire again, knowing it's basically a coin flip play. Surprisingly I get 4 callers. HAHA. The turn comes a beautiful queen and I fire again. A somewhat weak loose lady calls and I get another customer, but the other two drop. The river changes nothing and I lead out, wondering if I'm going to get called. The lady calls and the other guy mucks. She looks visibly confused when I turn over my hand. I get psuedomaniac points. Of course she three bets me the next two hands I raise, one time with pocket 3's and one time with god knows what, I took that one down without a showdown. I guess I took away her "weak" component lol.

Hand two- everyone and their mother limps. I limp on the button with 67o. I love this game. Flop comes the nuts, 5 89. A bet and a couple of callers and I raise. Same customers come. Turn comes a 10 and the same flop bettor leads out. Hmmm. There's callers in between so this is an autoamtic raise for me, waiting to see if he'll three bet. Ahh, just calls all around. River is a blank, bet and my hand is good.

Babe and I clash on one hand. I open raise with KQ sooted and she three bets me. The BB, a fairly loose player comes along for the ride. I flop the nuts, A J 10 two tone. This could definitely have hit the Babe, and probably the BB too. He's loose but not clueless, and for him to call two bets cold he probably hit this board. I check, Babe bets, BB calls, I check raise and both call. The turn comes nothing and I bet. Babe mucks, so she had QQ or KK. BB calls. The river is a jack, BB checks, I think for a little as this could have filled him, but it's still unlikely. He doesn't seem to like his hand much anyways. I bet and get a call from what was presumably an ace. Babe says she mucked KK. This is precisely why I check raised her on the flop, b/c there she (as well as anyone) would bet with a hand that wouldn't necessarily bet the turn. I got to trap the other guy too.

I play until about 6:30pm. The babe racks up a good winner. I'm up 400$, but unfortunately the last two orbits see me get AK and AA cracked and I book a 2$ loser. LOL.

My girl came into town on that Tues and the poker dropped off a lot b/c of it, which was honestly expected. We saw the Scintas on Wed which is probably worth seeing. They do a lot of impressions so if you're twenty something like me and know who George Burns and Bob Hope are but never got the chance to see them, it's sort of like walking into a time machine.

Somehow my girlfriend allows me to play on Thanksgiving day, which in retrospect I regret. Played some 30 at the Bellagio. Ended up stuck 800$ which is not a big loss here but it's still no fun either. Basically got no cards and when I did they lost. Should have said, "no honey, let me take you out, no boring poker for you today" or some such.

We met up with the babe for lunch on Fri at the Peppermill, which is an old school LV diner. The Babe and I immediately start talking shop. We don't order for quite a while after we sit down. To my girlfriend's credit she manages to appear interested. The food was ok, but the company excellent. Topics ranged from psychology, the options/brokerage business, serial killers, and medicine, with poker talk in between all of those subjects. If anyone can tell me how we seguewayed between them with poker as the bridge I will pay them 5 dollars, but it worked out well. You know you've had a good lunch when it takes two hours and you don't see the time go by. The babe is definitely someone I'm starting to consider a friend and is yet another reason why I need to keep coming "home".

Later that day a few of my brother's friends come into town. They both are learning hold em but honestly they haven't been at it that long, nor have they really had proper teaching. Who cares- MANDALAY BAY TIME! For those who don't know, the Mandalay has a beautiful room. Alas, they normally spread only small stakes, but that's perfect for us now. I play for the sheer pleasure of it. We all end up at the same table. Mind you, I'm still playing hard and talking a lot of smack to my brother's friends. On top of all that, the competition is weak as usual, the blinds are half structure and my cards are holding up. I'm often the only one who raises at the table. The game is 4/8 with a half kill, but they use 1$ chips mostly, unlike the 4/8 at foxwoods with 2$ chips. The difference is huge as every pot I drag is a monster which requires several minutes of stacking. The tables at the Mandalay have a sweet wooden rail for chips and cup holders, but they're a little thin when you've bought in for 200$ and are now up 200$ more, all in 1$ chips. Anyone who has ever booked a large win can identify with this horrible affliction and no doubt wishes it would come more often.

The dealers at the Mandalay unfortunately are so-so, maybe a notch worse than the Bellagio or Mirage. One hand one of my brother's friends called a bet on the river, looking at a board of 9 4 4 8 3. His opponent showed 92 off (I told you it was a good game). He thought for a while, looked at his hand, WENT TO MUCK, pulled his cards back and looked again. The dealer said nothing. I told him to turn his cards over and let the dealer figure it out. Mind you I know the dealer is not supposed to say anything, if the player wants to muck his hand go ahead, but in a situation like this, with a friendly table and obvious newbies, all efforts should be made to help them out. My bro's friend turned his hand and showed 9Q, to drag the pot. Thus I explained to him how "cards speak".

The other instance was a little more annoying, and I was kind of rude b/c of it. I'll let you be the judge. Massive pot. I've been hammering all the way, having raised with AK on the button and flopping an ace. Half kill pot too. A final board of A 3 4 6 4 sees me beat both a weak ace and some guy playing 36o, who sucked out on me at the turn only to lose to my glorious resuck on the river. Now at the showdown, the dealer doesn't push me the pot. Hmm. Now the dealer says "two pair" looking at 36o and says "aces" looking at my hand. I say aces and 4's. The dealer says "two pair", pushing foward the 3, the 6, and the ace, as if to show me the other 3 cards that go with the 36o. I say again, "aces and 4's, ship it, ship it, ship it" and starting waving the pot in my direction. 36o stands up to rake in the pot when the dealer gets it. I'm still saying ship it and waving the pot in. OK kind of rude but we didn't need any confusion on that hand. I actually have to explain to the other guy after the hand why his 36o ended up being no good. He was confused when the pot got pushed my way but the dealer didn't explain it to him. He seemed satisfied when I explained my resuck to him :grin:

The rest of the trip was just a bunch of good eating and hanging with friends and family which I won't bore you with here. I do have to say I wish more of my loved ones would get into poker b/c when we go out to the casino I often find myself playing neg ex games just to be social. Poker by its nature doesn't lend itself well to that. Mind you, I love craps, and can count at blackjack, but I still know where the advantage lies. Plus when I play craps I have to take maximum odds, b/c for me there's no other way to play. If I'm going to play neg ex I have to play properly. Thus, when you don't have a good run as I did not this trip, things get expensive fast. Oh well. The company and time was worth it, even though the bankroll takes a dent.

Hope you enjoyed it.

Leon

[Mike Gallo]

Leon,

Excellent report.

[Easy E]

"The other instance was a little more annoying, and I was kind of rude b/c of it. I'll let you be the judge."

I'd get PLENTY rude if someone tried to mistakenly ship my pot away, repeatedly. No penalty there.

As to the craps max odds comment, that's a bit of a fallacy. Yes, you're technically lowering your disadvantage, but as you say the swings can be killers. Play for the lower odds bets and play smart, but save the big odds bets for poker buyins...unless you intend to take a shot at craps in a big way.
You shouldn't start at max odds anyway IMO. Get into a streak and take advantage. Smaller edge x bigger bets = happy casino, after all

[leon]

As for the craps reply-

I just reread your post more carefully. You do agree that technically more odds lowers your disadvantage, sometimes down to pennies depending on how large you can take. That being said, I do agree with the variance comment, but thankfully I have the bankroll to stand the swings. Homer's post and link is a good one, check it out if you want.

Thanks for the reply.

Leon

[Easy E]

Well, unless my math is wrong, maybe you ought to rethink being happy about the "fact" that "technically more odds lowers your disadvantage"

Combined house edge on the pass line and taking odds

1X odds
0.848% $5 + $5 odds = $10 x 0.00848 = 8.48 cents

2X odds
0.606% $5 + 10 odds = $15 x 0.00606 = 9.09 cents

Full double odds
0.572%

3X odds
0.471%

3-4-5X odds
0.374%

5X odds
0.326% $5 + $25 odds = $30 x 0.00326 = 9.78 cents

10X odds
0.184%

20X odds
0.099% $5 + $100 = $105 x 0.00099 = 10.4 cents

100X odds
0.021% $5 bet, $500 odds = $505 x.00021 = 10.6 cents


Note that the casino's expected return goes UP by almost 25% when you use 100x odds. Not quite the "gain" that you expected for yourself, is it? (we'll ignore comps you'd be getting, which of course would change the number somewhat)

Now, if you lost 5 bets in a row at single odds and 5 at 100x odds.... do you still feel that you made the best bet that you could?

That's what the casinos are about- they've a bigger bankroll, so they can outwait you. The same concept applies to higher returns on slot machines.

Why do you THINK that they offer higher odds? It's not just a marketing gimmick...

As I said before- save the big bucks for the poker game buyins- take your WINNINGS, where your edge should be much better, and try to roll up a score at craps.

[banditbdl]

While I agree you should save the big bucks, hell all the bucks for poker buy-ins it is better to play a game with 100X odds than a lower odds game. That said, unfortunately you're calculations are indeed a little off they should read more like:

1X odds
0.848% $5 + $5 odds= $5 x 0.00848 + $5 x 0 = 4.24 cents

or a 0.424% house edge

2X odds
0.848% $5 + $10 odds = $5 x 0.00848 + $10 x 0 = 4.24 cents
or a 0.283% house edge.

etc.. etc..

100X
0.848% $5 + $500 odds = $5 x 0.00848 + $500 x 0 = 4.24 cents
or a .008396% House Edge.

The odds bet are x 0 because by definition they are EV=0 wager between the house and the player. That said I've only played craps as a social event with my non-poker playing friends because you simply can't win in the long run.

[Easy E]

thought it applies to the total bet as a combined figure.
I wonder why your calculations and Michael Shackleford's (sp?) are different? no matter.

I guess it's primarily a casino method to getting you to bet more money, so they have a greater chance of wiping you out faster when you hit a cold streak.

thanks for pointing out my error.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, unless my math is wrong

[/ QUOTE ]
It is.

The house edge in that chart is the total edge for the house. Odds bets are even money bets. The more odds you take, the less edge the house has on the total bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Note that the casino's expected return goes UP by almost 25% when you use 100x odds. Not quite the "gain" that you expected for yourself, is it? (we'll ignore comps you'd be getting, which of course would change the number somewhat)

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, the amount of expected return is exactly the same - they have the same house advantage on the original bet regardless of odds. The percentage expected return is way less since you're betting a much larger total amount. You are correct that the greater comps on the larger bet will make it an even better bet for you.

[ QUOTE ]
That's what the casinos are about- they've a bigger bankroll, so they can outwait you.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are correct that they have the ability to offer you even money bets if being able to make those bets will make it more likely that you place bets where the house has an advantage - that's what's going on w/ craps.

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you THINK that they offer higher odds? It's not just a marketing gimmick...

[/ QUOTE ]
It is in large part just a marketing gimmick. By offering higher odds, they hope to get more action on the craps table. The more non-odds bets they get, the more money they make.

[ QUOTE ]
take your WINNINGS, where your edge should be much better, and try to roll up a score at craps.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you weren't going to gamble at craps in the first place, I don't see any reason why you should want to do it with money you won at poker.

[leon]

Sorry you went to all that trouble Easy. You see with Ulysses' and other's replies that taking more odds does not increase the house edge.

The reason why they offer the odds is twofold- one, it IS a marketing gimmick in the sense that someone who doesn't understand the odds might think they have a WINNING bet. Note I said WINNING, not breakeven which it is in actuality. This leads me to number 2- since it is a breakeven bet, the casino stands to lose nothing in the long run, so they can offer it, esp with all the other people taking no odds, making hardway bets, etc. As you correctly pointed out they have the huge bankroll, they can grind anyone down over time, so it doesn't hurt them to offer odds to a player like me b/c they still have the same advantage over my pass line bet. But that doesn't make it worse for me. Any action I give on odds is by definition a break even, completely neutral bet.

As to taking poker winnings and making a score at craps, I never play craps expecting to win (obviously). As I stated in the original post, I know where the advantage lies. I actually consider the money two seperate entitites- poker I earn at such and such rate, and stuff like craps is just money that is being spent. No different than if I was a full time pro and used some of my money to buy a gift for someone- it's gone, evaporated. If I truly protected ALL my money I wouldn't put any of it into action in a casino game, but for that matter I wouldn't buy anything non-essential. I consider something like craps a consumer item no different than spending money on something you don't really need. That's why I said I kind of wished that my family/friends played more poker- so I could spend time with them in a + EV situation rather than a negative one.

Take care.

Leon

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I never play craps expecting to win (obviously).

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell kind of attitude is that? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]