Good hand for newer players to examine

[Mike]

I thought this hand had a lot of lessons in it for newer players so I decided to share it. It's a $4-8 LAG game, and has been this way over an hour now. Button is seat seven. Button is an experienced player, but for whatever reasons never raises, he also has a tendency to fold the river. He has a friend in seat ten whom he tells, "I am raising this hand, no matter what." I would also like to note that player on my right has been playing erratically, I didn't think he had a lot of experience. He told me a short time later he had been playing 30 hours straight.

Preflop UTG comes in raising, two calls and another raise, called to me. I'm in the CO with JTo, I call. Button true to his declaration raises. It's back to me with a family pot, pot capped preflop, 20 BB in the pot.

Flop comes down 6,4,T with two clubs. I have top pair and an overcard to the board, my Ten is a club, life is good. SB bets out, called to me I raise, Button re-raises, folded to player on my right who calls, I call. Pot size beyond normal comprehension, no oint in counting any higher.

Turn is the King diamonds, I see player one flinch, he must have folded KK, that's a relief. Player on my right checks, I check because I am sure Button will bet and I want to raise as the Button and Player on my right are both visibly in pain. Button checks!!!! Not good for me, I am sure not betting out has just cost me the pot.

Turn is 2 clubs. Board is now 64TK2 with three clubs. Player on my right checks, I bet, Button holds his hand so seats eight -> ten can see it as he mucks. Player on my right is in real pain, he starts to put out his call, pulls it in, repeats this four times. Finally he throws in his bet, and flips over JJ.

I muck my JT face down. Button groans, seat one swears and is reprimanded by the dealer, seat nine is also mumbling loudly, but not in English. Seat ten tells me Button threw away AA.

[hockey1]

This post must be a joke, right?

You cold called a 3-bet with JTo, with a button who has promised to raise behind you.

The flop hits your ten -- and you've got that whopping J kicker. You're against five players in a pre-flop capped pot and you think you're ahead? Given that you've already gotten yourself into this mess I guess raising is the best play.

Turn is a K and you're looking to check-raise. Maybe as a bluff. But against 3 (or is it 2?) players, and a huge pot that's pretty unlikely to work. You can't possibly think you still have the best hand unless the players you're up against are utter maniacs.

The post-river play confirms that you were behind . . . everyone . . . the whole way.

And the lessons for beginners are?

[chesspain]

Two questions:

1. How could you possibly think that someone threw away pocket kings before the turn? Or did you mean a paired king (which you should state as Kx)?

2. Why are you coldcalling three bets (!!!) PF with garbage like JTo?

You will be broke before the Red Sox are busted out of the post-season if you continue pissing away money like this.

[Mike]

All I can say with any certainty is that one player was real unhappy when King diamonds showed up on the turn. I am guessing that he wasn't holding Kx or XXd because that would have made little difference if he was at all rational.

[oneeye13]

"if he was at all rational", he would have been the only one at the table, other than whoever had JJ

[Mike]

I think you should think about this some more. The flop contained 4,6,T with two clubs, and ten players active in the hand. If on average 1 or 2 of those players has a pair preflop, the others hold a pretty random selection of cards.

Someone must have had one club perhaps two in their hand. Someone had a piece of the 64 or T6 for a straight draw of some type. In another hand with different players someone might have held TT, 66, 44 and flopped a set although they should let you know on the flop. An overpair is also a possibility when you hold JJ in a multiway pot.

You wouldn't be to wrong to fold JJ in a multiway pot. You will occasionally win, but you are not much better off than I was with JTo when it comes to winning. You can't push your JJ, it slows you down and lets the other players in to make their draws or otherwise imporove their hands.

Of course this is only my opinion and others will have different views.

[oneeye13]

you can't push JJ, but you can push a T w/ J kicker? i don't follow this.

[banditbdl]

You would in fact be terribly, horribly wrong to fold an overpair like JJ, when a ten high flop is raised by a loose aggressive player like yourself who is raising the flop after calling 3 cold preflop. This hand is perfect evidence of way folding JJ here is an absolutely horrendous play as this player won himself I nice hefty pot by calling it down.

P.S. I actually am somewhat inclined to believe the button may have actually folded. He was trying too hard to make a "great" play and wanted to impress his buddies sitting next to him by showing them what a strong hand he was folding. As for the seat one player, KK is highly unlikely, he likely had Kx. If two players folded KK and AA in a nine-way cap-flop it would have to be the absolute most dead money table ever known to man.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
You wouldn't be to wrong to fold JJ in a multiway pot. You will occasionally win, but you are not much better off than I was with JTo when it comes to winning.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't be serious. JJ will flop a set once every 8.5 flops. You'd be crazy to fold that hand in a family pot. JTo, however, will not flop a hand as strong as a set once every 8.5 flops. The fact that you see JTo as an equal hand to JJ in a capped family pot would be humorous, except for the fact that you consider yourself a winning poker player.

I feel very badly that beginning players come here for advice and may emulate your play of this hand. Please do not post such idiocy as solid poker.

[gonores]

Preflop - Calling with JTo for 3 bets is terrible, regardless of the situation.

Flop - I'm not really sure how I would play this, since I'd never play this preflop. I guess I would try a raise since I wouldn't be sure if the button really did blow a fuse when he capped it. After the reraise from the button, I'd give him credit for an overpair. If I knew he had a history of insanity, I'd consider taking my unimproved 10 to the river, given the pot size. However, I am worried as hell about the guy to your right having you outkicked.

Turn - Planning to raise here is nuts. Why do you want to raise here with 2nd pair, weak kicker? If you really, really think you have the best hand, your best play is to bet into the button, hoping he will raise and knock out the guy to your right. The pot is huge and making people fold is your top priority.

River - *shrug* I don't know why you would bet here. Do you honestly think people will call with a worse hand or do you think you can make two people fold with the incredibly huge pot?

Diagnosis - Reasonable players don't lose a single dollar in this pot. You could consider yourself lucky to come in second on this hand.

I'm not sure what lessons newer players can learn here. I don't think any of the players in this hand employed any logic into this hand. However, I am guessing that Sklansky could find more than a couple crimes against humanity in this hand.

Doug