Interesting play on the turn - kept me in check

[Mike]

$4 - 8, loose and semi aggressive, at this point five to the flop with at least one raise is the norm. Player in question is generally a winning solid player.

One bet and five limpers to me on the button with 9,8 spades. I'm calling of course. BB raises, he's been on my case for an hour - raising any time I am in (can you say Tilit Monster has arrived?).

Flop comes down T,6 spades, 5d. One bet five callers to me, what's a guy to do....hmmm, I like this too much, I call also. I want them all to the river if I hit either hand.

Turn brings the 3 spades for a board of T,6,3 spades, and 5 diamonds.

Bet and called to player on my right who raises, hmm, maybe oh oh, maybe oh boy! I reraise, folded back to him (no dummies here) and he reraises my raise. He's got my undivided attention - I call.

Turn comes 2 hearts and I've surely got the flush, but does he have a bigger flush? He checks..... Is he checking the nut flush, or a straight.... I turn over my hand for a medium flush and he turns over A spades, K diamonds. My flush is good.

I asked about the reraise on the turn, he said he was waiting for a fourth spade, as his Ace would rule. At first I thought he was nuts popping a third raise on the turn, then I decided it was a very very good play. Any comments on his turn play?

[crockpot]

you thought he was making a very good play? why?? he is putting in more money than he has to when he is almost surely a more than 4:1 dog on the turn. how can you possible three-bet with less than two pair?

by the way, 9-8 suited, though it looks good in a loose game, is actually very marginal in this situation. if you suspect it will be raised behind you (which you did here) and that the flop will be bet aggressively, you may want to fold, because your implied odds are being significantly reduced by all the action.

[Nottom]

Are you honestly saying that you think he should consider folding 89s on the button after 5 players limped?

[crockpot]

if you told me that it would be raised behind me for sure and that i could expect to be bet out if i flop a gutshot, which is probably the case here, i would definitely think about it.

with a small pair in the same case, i would definitely call because you don't mind the other players being aggressive if you have flopped a set.

if variance doesn't matter to you at all, that would tilt the scales in favor of calling.

[GuyOnTilt]

I wouldn't even consider folding 98s in this spot on the button. I actually would very seriously consider raising.

[crockpot]

i agree completely with this raise in a loose-passive game, because you can use your raise to take a free card or bet your draw for value on a good flop. but this is a totally different position. if you raise, the big blind will very likely three-bet it. even loose limpers will fold most of their hands when it is two more bets back to them. so basically you are trying to raise for value here against maybe three callers who will come for the three bets.

the main reason i would consider folding the hand is that in these types of games, for a variety of reasons, one of the limpers often three-bets a raiser out of the blind. you definitely do not want to put in three bets preflop with this hand, unless you really came to gamble. and if you flop a poor draw, you will not appreciate the bets the aggressive field throw at you.

[Mike]

I think it was a very good play. He is getting correct odds to make this play, and it puts pressure on me to figure out what he holds, and what am I to do about it.

Did he let myself and BB do the betting for him? Does he hold KQJx of spades and is worried about another hand having the case Ace and wants it out before the river cards? Does he think I may hold the case Ace, and he wants me out?

He can afford to make this play in this situation, when he loses he still makes money from this play in this situation. Not to mention he will river a spade frequently enough to hold the nut flush.

Yes, I knew the button would raise, he raised me three hands in a row, why would he stop at this one. So did all the other players know he would raise, he was tilting and I was his focus.

A good starting hand is a good starting hand, and there is nothing wrong with 98 suited on the button, no raise or three raises if the game is aggressive enough.

Finally, I do not see the point of worrying about my implied odds in this hand, I am getting odds to see the flop, the game was as I stated, loose and semi aggressive. That does imply many players through the rounds in the hand? The rest of the hand plays itself out as it will, no one knows what that will be, but loose is loose. Anytime you throw away 98 suited on the button against a large field you are throwing away money.

[crockpot]

i will reduce the severity of my comments on the call preflop. all i am trying to say is that since the field is expecting the big blind to raise, someone with a big hand in early position is probably waiting to three bet it (and the big blind may cap). and i do not know of any authorities on the game who recommend regularly playing this hand for three or four bets.

and it is important to remember that suited connectors don't like games with aggressive flop and turn betting because you are much more likely to flop a draw than a completed hand. here, if you had not made the flush on the turn and the betting was like this, you might have had to dump the hand, considering the chances that a higher flush draw was out.

but yes, it is profitable to play the hand.

[Mike]

It is amazing on how most of us have over 1000 plus pages of just 2 + 2 material attempting to show us how to manipulate, control and create situations at a poker table, and we can't see the forest for the trees.

The point and question of my post was concerning the turn play. My opponent correctly applied FTOP, and it was a very very good play. He knew exactly where my hand was, and I had no clue where his was. I had to decisions to make at a bad time.

Going beyond this shallow surface of the hand play, he had all the table glued to our play and his reraising my raise. You get a lot of milage out of a play like that no matter what the outcome. Some players will be less likely to take him on because of his reraising, other players will see him as the ulitimate bluffer. To me it didn't really matter if he won the hand or not, he made it clear to me at least he was capable of taking the game to a higher level.

Starting with Dr Schoonmaker, Dr Feeney, and all of 2 + 2 books, we are shown how to create and manipulate and control situations, yet almost all posts aren't at a much higher level than the old standby: playing AQo, and do I have correct odds to play XX at the turn. That's only a small part of poker, and where we all start. Our game should grow from there.

You can argue the merits of my playing 98 suited all day long, it's really irrelevent whether I played it or folded. What you do not see at $4-8 very often is another player creating a situation and taking the game up a notch.

IMO, making things happen at the table makes you money. Why was BB riding my play? Because I was killing his action every chance I could by raising him preflop. He was the big dog at the table, and I wanted him gone or his teeth pulled. He tilted instead of trying to outplay me. The player on my right, used his brain instead of tilting, and put me in a very bad spot with a huge pot.

[crockpot]

i do not agree that he put you in a very bad spot. how many low-limit players do you know that will put in a third bet and then be intimidated by a fourth? even ultra-aggressive players have to have at least two pair to make the reraise in your spot, so your opponent is playing about eight outs.

i think his play on the turn combined with his comment that he was waiting for a fourth spade made it quite clear that he knew he was beaten and was just looking to gamble without having the best of it. after all, the biggest thrill for the poor players in the game is dragging in a huge pot, and he probably just wanted it to be that much bigger.

had your opponent made this kind of play in a no-limit game where his turn semi-bluff could really put you to the test, i would definitely agree he made a great play. but to reraise when you are sure you will be called, then not bet the river unless you hit the nuts; that's not great play, it's just increasing the stakes without having the best of it. (in fact, this is probably a worse play than the big blind's preflop raise even if he was raising with any two cards.)

perhaps if he had bet the river, you could say he was really putting you to the test, but i don't see how he could have expected you to do anything but call the turn.