what's the best turn play here?

[mike l.]

i have AsTs utg in a decent but not terrific 20-40 game 9 handed. i consider calling, and consider folding, but openraise instead. 3 good players cold call, 1 crummy short stacked player calls, bb calls.

the flop is Td8d5s. bb checks, i bet, 2 of the good players call, crummy cutoff calls, bb folds. 4 of us now.

the turn is 3s. what's my best play and how close is it between that and my other options and why?

[brad]

imho not even close just bet.

dont give free cards.

thouht question what top/top nut flush to go for checkraise with? AQ? more i think more only cr turn AK

plus charge flop flush draw and if u get raised u got some wiggle room if u 3 bet with the worse hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[mike l.]

i checked the turn. i figured that between the solid players and the almost all in cutoff ($45 left on the turn, sorry i left that detail out) someone was very likely to bet and i loved my hand so much at that point, despite it's vulnerability. one thing that crossed my mind later was that the two players who folded on the flop probably held hands with two overcards to my T, hands like KJs, QJs, AJ, whatever. so that made it less likely an overcard would fall on the river that could hurt me should a free card come off.

anyways, i checked the turn, second solid player (very good player really) bet, cutoff went all in, i checkraised, solid player to my left called two cold meaning flush draw, and very good called. the river was a 5c. i bet, fold, crying call. my hand was good, all in guy showed KTo.

on the turn i decided i really wanted to hammer it to these guys and punish them, i thought the chances i could checkraise and either narrow the field, or build a big pot with a hand almost sure to be best, and favored to hold up or even improve to the nut flush. my natural instinct or intuition if you will would be to just my bet my hand, but i went against that, was it really too risky?

[brad]

well in a lot of games sure somebodys gonna bet so then a c.r. is a lot easier to pull off.

but really lets see one guys is almost all in and didnt bet or raise flop, guy next to act after you didnt raise (looks like draw) so that leaves really one guy who might bet the turn for you. but at the table you know you might be pretty sure its gonna get bet.

one other point though is that in some rooms you would not be allowed to raise (just match all ins money) because you checked first and then somebody raised or bet all in.

but the big problem in a nutshell is King Queen Jacks should be in peoples hands and a lot of them are folding for a turn bet but will not bet (KQ, KJ, AJ,QJ even)

also another point if it does get checked through and then say a Jack comes on river you are in tough situation (say you check river then and its bet and a raise back to you and you being a good player know that player on your left bet his busted draw most which probably didnt make a pair on river and also you know raiser knows this, ..

[andyfox]

"very good player really"

How do you justify that assessment with how he played this hand?

[brad]

big diamonds and he wanted to play it so as not to drive out the really bad player? (maybe even AKd ?)

[mike l.]

""very good player really"

How do you justify that assessment with how he played this hand?

he was playing quite tight and aggressive the rest of the session. i figure he saw me raise utg and didnt really fear that (and he was correct not to; i had only ATs), then he saw two cold callers after me and figured now was an okay time to see a flop w/ JTs or something, maybe 99 as well as a couple other hands. mabye A8s.

on the flop his non-raise is a bit strange, but perhaps he was waiting to see how the turn fell and then possibly raise my bet then. as it turned out he did the betting on the turn, and me the raising. he seemed ready to laydown on the the turn, putting me on an overpair at that point im pretty sure and seeing that the pot was protected by the all in player, but i think the pot size kept him in and then the river call was mandatory in 12 big bet pot.

so i dont think he misplayed it too much, but seeing as he probably flopped top pair with a dominated hand im sure he wasnt thrilled about it.

[elysium]

hi mike
check-call the flop; check-raise the CO on the turn. the MP's will fold, and you should have the lead.

[elysium]

hi mike
i didn't see you pick up the flush draw on the turn. definately go for the turn check-raise. this draw infested board will not be checked down. if it's only one bettor to you, even though you have a draw to the nuts, you don't mind getting it heads up. however, if you get called by many, you don't mind that either. and if you get reraised, you can cap this with no problem. great check-raising opportunity. but even without the flush draw you can check-raise the turn. it's a little more dicey, but the button will often bet inthis situation. without the draw, if the bet came from your imm. left, you should then call of course. but with the draw, you have a terrific check-raise; couldn't be better. well worth the risk of allowing the free-card. there are certain opponents that you wouldn't check-raise, but not these. and remember,; even when the bet comes from the button and you know that if you raise one or both MP's will drop out, still go for the check-raise. your hand plays very well heads up too.

also notice that since your hand can improve, the free-card doesn't hurt you that badly. that's the kind of free-card risk to take by the way; a risk in pot size and not the pot. perfect turn check-raise opportunity.

[hutz]

I'm with brad -- bet. You have too much to lose from giving a free card to overcards or a diamond draw.

By the way, I don't generally think of someone who calls an UTG raise cold from MP as a particularly good player.