When is passive play right?

#1 12-09-2005, 03:31 PM

First post, long time reader (thanks to all who do post).

I'm a 15.5/7.5/3.8 player over the last ~20k hands, so don't think aggression is a problem for me. Preflop is obviously weak, but what do think about the line from the flop on? I've only seen villain for one rotation; no reads.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Meh. Whatever.

Flop: (3 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

There's no way I'm folding here, but a bet doesn't seem right either. If I bet and he has it, I lose more money than just calling. If I bet and he doesn't have it, he folds and I make nothing.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

River: (4.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

#2 12-09-2005, 03:39 PM

Passive play works great in solitaire, not here.

This would have played out a helluva lot different had you raised pre-flop and either checkraised the flop or bet out on the flop.

#3 12-09-2005, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Passive play works great in solitaire, not here.

This would have played out a helluva lot different had you raised pre-flop and either checkraised the flop or bet out on the flop.

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I disagree with any blanket statements about passive play. There are times when playing a hand aggressively (even a fairly strong hand) is the wrong play. The question is: what's the best way to make the most when I'm ahead, and lose the least when I'm behind?

#4 12-09-2005, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Passive play works great in solitaire, not here.

This would have played out a helluva lot different had you raised pre-flop and either checkraised the flop or bet out on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with any blanket statements about passive play. There are times when playing a hand aggressively (even a fairly strong hand) is the wrong play. The question is: what's the best way to make the most when I'm ahead, and lose the least when I'm behind?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have much to learn.

Don't confuse passive play with slowplay.

#5 12-09-2005, 04:36 PM

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You have much to learn.

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I agree completely.

#6 12-09-2005, 08:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The question is: what's the best way to make the most when I'm ahead, and lose the least when I'm behind?

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You lose the least when you are behind by folding, but there is no way to know we are behind yet. I wouldn't worry about "making the most" when you are ahead in this hand per say. Your profit will come from making 1,000s of positive excepted value decisions over time. Focus on making decisions to maximize your EV.

Having said that, AA is the highest EV hand possible preflop!!!! RAISE!!

On the flop you have great pot equity!! A raise tends to show a profit (+EV). RAISE!!

If you had to play this hand over and over 1000 times you make more money on average by raising preflop and beting/raising the flop . . .

Slow playing is best against good thinking players because it will induce them to make mistakes . . . I really don't think this table qualifies for the exception of a slowplay . . .

#7 12-09-2005, 03:49 PM

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There's no way I'm folding here, but a bet doesn't seem right either. If I bet and he has it, I lose more money than just calling. If I bet and he doesn't have it, he folds and I make nothing.

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if by it you mean the flush, no. If you bet and he has only a club, there's a very good chance he's calling and drawing almost dead. If he has just a pair, same. If he has a pair and a club, he's drawing to 4 outs and there's a good chance he'll raise. If he has the straight draw he's drawing to four outs, if he has a gutshot and a club he's drawing to 3 outs. In all of these situations, he is going to think his hand is much better than it is because it is unlikely you have him outpaired and outclubbed. I think you are way underestimating the value of your hand.

I don't have a problem with preflop, btw. I think letting a random hand in with AA is often better than giving away the fact that you hold a premium hand, so unless you're often isolating from the SB ...

#8 12-09-2005, 03:58 PM

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I don't have a problem with preflop, btw. I think letting a random hand in with AA is often better than giving away the fact that you hold a premium hand,

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You're obviously not raising enough pre-flop.

This is flawed reasoning at this level, IMO. You are are losing out of pre-flop equity by limping this. And not every hand that you should or could be raising would be considered a "premium hand", anyway.

#9 12-09-2005, 06:36 PM

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You're obviously not raising enough pre-flop.

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10% and I love to isolate. I think you definately get more action w/o the preflop raise and your equity only drops 6% or so letting a random hand in (Pokerstove assuming he limps PP above 66, any two above 10 suited, suited connecters over 78, a bunch of face cards, etc). If the BB is a calling station I obviously change my answer.

#10 12-09-2005, 04:11 PM

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I think you are way underestimating the value of your hand.

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No I'm not. I know MHIG here quite often. That's not the point. If I raise with the best hand, I win very little (he's bluffing and he folds). If I raise with a worse hand, I lose more than calling down.