QQ, Lots of Action, New To Limit

#1 12-04-2005, 09:15 PM

I'm new to limit and am just trying it out to clear some bonuses. I had a few question about the action on this massive pot:

1.) Should I be raising this hand in MP
2.) I raised the other rounds because SB was opening. Is this correct?
3.) Why the hell would UTG (*EDIT*) call a 3-bet on that turn then fold to the J on the river?
4.) Am I overanalyzing this?

PS: I know I backed off at the end, but like I said, I'm new to limit. Plus I'm a little b*tch.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (23 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 29 BB

milesdyson · #2 12-04-2005, 09:24 PM

prefrop is fine. flop raise is fine.

cap the turn. unless button coldcalled 74/42, you have the best hand. even if he has that (somehow), you have SB and UTG+1 trapped here for more bets. it's a must cap. river is fine.

to answer your specific questions (some have been answered above):
1. yes
2. no, it doesn't matter that he's "opening." you are betting and raising because you have the best hand. it has nothing to do with who is betting. if it were UTG+1 betting, you'd be doing the same. if someone check raised you, you'd be reraising. if they had all checked, you'd bet.
3. he didn't. he called the 3-bet and folded the river. he probably had something like 87 or a gutshot.
4. wha

Songwind · #3 12-05-2005, 04:04 PM

*grunch*

1) Every time. And 3-bet if it's raised before you.

I like the flop raise.

I cap the turn. The possible straights with this board aren't that possible, I think you're more likely up against 2-pair or a smaller set.

I would also back off on the river. Aggression against a consistently aggressive opponent after a flush card hits the board probably indicates it helped his hand. It's possible he's bluffing at the pot because of the scare card, but if so, make a note of it and remember next time.

#4 12-05-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
prefrop is fine. flop raise is fine.

cap the turn. unless button coldcalled 74/42, you have the best hand. even if he has that (somehow), you have SB and UTG+1 trapped here for more bets. it's a must cap. river is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The idea that someone made a straight right there is very unlikely. Cap the betting to build a bigger pot for you and reduce the drawing odds for the flush draws.

Eeegah · #5 12-04-2005, 09:26 PM

1. You should be raising in any position, 3-betting in any position, and capping in any position. You need no other buttons with JJ-AA, at least preflop.
2) No problem raising the flop. You got a set, go nuts and hope it's capped.
3) Are we reading the same hand?
4) Er, no. Limit is hard [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway I'm tempted to cap the turn as I'm not prepared to give the button credit for a straight just yet. Nothing you can do on the river; he probably has the flush but you gotta call; the pot's big.

bottomset · #6 12-05-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. You should be raising in any position, 3-betting in any position, and capping in any position. You need no other buttons with JJ-AA, at least preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this, I don't always cap JJ, and AA,KK often have spots where you are better served to just call a 3bet, generally when you are HU.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also raise the turn as you did, but the button 3 bet makes me think A2 straight? - slow down and don't cap - your play was good here also.

[/ QUOTE ]

reread the board, A2 doesn't make a straight, its 74 and 42 that make one, and only extremely loose players coldcall with them

so you need to cap the turn

[ QUOTE ]
Riv- now a straight AND flush draw, I'm checking behind the SB to PREVENT the c/r. If the button bets and its 2 back to me, then it is an easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't be scared bro, plenty worse hands will call

[ QUOTE ]
You may have the best hand, but I'm putting the SB on the flush all the way. These is no way all 4 will fold to your bet. Checking saves you 2 bets when behind as you really must be here.

[/ QUOTE ]

you get calls from worse hands thats what they do, you are ahead here a lot of the time

[ QUOTE ]
Given no reads on him, I found his action to be very consistent with a flush draw at this level. Being OOP, he bet the flop to see where he was. Given the action on the flop, he BET the turn blank for VALUE. Yes, value. Look at the action to his implied odds, plus he could c/f the blank on the riv.

[/ QUOTE ]

he bet the flop, he was making money on bets going in on the flop yes, since he'll have 25-35% equity, and 4ppl put money in

on the turn he is a 4/1 dog, 4handed betting here back into a flop raiser is simply bleeding money, implied odds are for CALLING BETS not for deciding if a bet is for value, for determining that you need to look at POT EQUITY, which is in the vicinity of 20%, so you need 4 other players putting money in for it to be breakeven, 5 to be betting for value .. neither is the case here, so the bet is -EV

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, he got lucky (but trusted his reads of this hand) and c/r the flush for VALUE (as long as he held the Ax for the unquestionable nuts).
Each street's action must be considered in context. I'm checking here and hoping the button checks also.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are going to see QJ here far more often than a flush from the SB, other hands I expect more than a flush AA, KK bad players do superstupid stuff with those 2 hands .. his play is very inconsistent with a FD

milesdyson · #7 12-05-2005, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2. He bet the turn, where most of us probably check the blank. While I cannot see the OP now, I believe pot is now big enough to bet again if he holds Axs.

[/ QUOTE ]
now we're getting somewhere. you don't understand pot equity. you're confused that because the pot is large he should be betting his flush draw again. this is not right and i won't take the time to explain it. search "pot equity" and "pumping draws"

Eeegah · #8 12-05-2005, 06:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this, I don't always cap JJ, and AA,KK often have spots where you are better served to just call a 3bet, generally when you are HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've done a KK limp HU before (SB vs BB) so I can see that, but could I get an example here where you wouldn't cap JJ? It's an autocap for me.

bottomset · #9 12-05-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this, I don't always cap JJ, and AA,KK often have spots where you are better served to just call a 3bet, generally when you are HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've done a KK limp HU before (SB vs BB) so I can see that, but could I get an example here where you wouldn't cap JJ? It's an autocap for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

you raise, and get 3bet by a tight unimaginative player

#10 12-04-2005, 09:33 PM

As a general rule always raise with QQ from every position. Looking in PT my PFR stats for AA (95%), KK (96%), QQ (97%), JJ (89%), 1010 (67%). I'm sure AA and KK would be 100% but I must have misclicked or timed out a few times or something.

Post-flop you hit a huge hand. Keep betting-raising. I'm not too worried on the turn and I would cap it for sure as only one or two hands beat you (52 and 74), and you can't be reraised. Plus if you're betting the river you should be capping the turn.

On the river I just call the raise as the flush draw got there.