$33 AK... Missed Flop

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

My post flop play is weak... how would you play post flop, and why? I did not like villain's bet on the flop that missed me... but did flop help or hurt villain? His bet suggests that it helped, or did not hurt him...

Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 2: pineapple888 (1805)
Seat 3: Dr_Jeckyl_00 (715)
Seat 4: ZENIT69 (1120)
Seat 5: slangin_sara (765)
Seat 7: QuasiFiction (1815)
Seat 8: A1688 (290)
Seat 9: LuCkYl7 (1040)
Seat 10: tenntux (450)
ZENIT69 posts small blind (25)
slangin_sara posts big blind (50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Dr_Jeckyl_00 [ Ks, Ad ]
QuasiFiction folds.
A1688 folds.
LuCkYl7 folds.
tenntux folds.
pineapple888 folds.
Dr_Jeckyl_00 raises (150) to 150
ZENIT69 folds.
slangin_sara calls (100)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Td, 8h, 7c ]
slangin_sara bets (250)
HERO?
Results in White <font color="white">
Dr_Jeckyl_00 raises (565) to 565
Dr_Jeckyl_00 is all-In.
slangin_sara calls (315)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Kc ]
** Dealing River ** : [ As ]
Creating Main Pot with $1455 with Dr_Jeckyl_00
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1455 |
Board: [ Td 8h 7c Kc As ]
pineapple888 balance 1805, didn't bet (folded)
Dr_Jeckyl_00 balance 1455, bet 715, collected 1455, net +740 [ Ks Ad ] [ two pairs, aces and kings -- Ad,As,Ks,Kc,Td ]
ZENIT69 balance 1095, lost 25 (folded)
slangin_sara balance 50, lost 715 [ Qh Qc ] [ a pair of queens -- As,Kc,Qh,Qc,Td ]
QuasiFiction balance 1815, didn't bet (folded)
A1688 balance 290, didn't bet (folded)
LuCkYl7 balance 1040, didn't bet (folded)
tenntux balance 450, didn't bet (folded)

EVEN THOUGH I WON, I THINK I SHOULD HAVE FOLDED TO HIS FLOP BET... BUT AS IS OFTEN THE CASE I GET IMPULSIVE AND DON'T THINK THINGS THROUGH
</font>

[junkmail3]

Eh, just fold.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

I agree with pineapple888. No reaosn to puch pre-flop and you have plenty of chips left to make a continuation bet post-flop, which i would probably have done had she not bet first. After the bet it's either a fold or an all in and I think fold is the way to go.

I've also got to say that I'm not really enamored with the way she played her queens.

[mosdef]

With only 715 chips at the start of the hand you should just shove that preflop. You don't have enough chips to make a continuation bet after the flop when you hit.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
With only 715 chips at the start of the hand you should just shove that preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There's hardly ever a reason to open push with &gt;10BB.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have enough chips to make a continuation bet after the flop when you hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you do (see villain's action), and so what if you didn't?

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With only 715 chips at the start of the hand you should just shove that preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There's hardly ever a reason to open push with &gt;10BB.


[/ QUOTE ]

(sorry for the hijak) Not to be a nit, but having 10.5 or 11 or 12 BB could make a pretty compelling reason.

Often when I'm stealing, if I have 12.5 or under BB (or my victims do) I'll just push away. No need to worry about 5.-2.5 BB. It gets rid of a lot of resteal headaches. (Normally starting at lvl 4+)

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With only 715 chips at the start of the hand you should just shove that preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There's hardly ever a reason to open push with &gt;10BB.


[/ QUOTE ]

(sorry for the hijak) Not to be a nit, but having 10.5 or 11 or 12 BB could make a pretty compelling reason.

Often when I'm stealing, if I have 12.5 or under BB (or my victims do) I'll just push away. No need to worry about 5.-2.5 BB. It gets rid of a lot of resteal headaches. (Normally starting at lvl 4+)

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is, villains can't tell if you are pot-committed when you simply raise, but not push, with more than 10BB. Maybe you are going to call a push, maybe not. This uncertainty works to your advantage, if you are consistent about it.

But whatever works for you...

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With only 715 chips at the start of the hand you should just shove that preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There's hardly ever a reason to open push with &gt;10BB.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have enough chips to make a continuation bet after the flop when you hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you do (see villain's action), and so what if you didn't?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Pineapple. Thanks for the comments.

I continue to disagree and here's why. In this particular situation a raise of, say 125-150 (fairly standard preflop raise amount) will take you down to around 575 chips. At that point you have got a stack JUST big enough to maintain fold equity if you let this hand go. So if you choose to c-bet a standard amount on flop (another 150-175) you are down to 400-425 chips. This is a small enough amount that it seriously reduces your fold equity in level 4 (as compared to around 575). That's why I don't like playing this hand with the intention of c-betting. Your stack after the c-bet isn't enough to continue beyond the current hand, so you effectively are playing for your whole stack at that point anyway.

715 just isn't enough IMO to dick around in level 3 because you risk getting crippled. The only way I support the 150 raise is if:

1. There are limpers who may call your raise. Then you are actually playing for TPTK value if you get 2+ callers, and you can abandon the hand with 575 chips left if you face resistance; OR

2. The guys left behind you have been observed to be tight and you can reasonably infer that they will fold to a small raise as often as a push; OR

3. You are comfortable checking behind on the flop if the caller checks to you because you believe you can get him to bluff away a chunk of his stack on the turn or the river. I often make the 125 preflop raise with this in mind, as opposed to a c-bet.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With only 715 chips at the start of the hand you should just shove that preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There's hardly ever a reason to open push with &gt;10BB.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have enough chips to make a continuation bet after the flop when you hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you do (see villain's action), and so what if you didn't?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Pineapple. Thanks for the comments.

I continue to disagree and here's why. In this particular situation a raise of, say 125-150 (fairly standard preflop raise amount) will take you down to around 575 chips. At that point you have got a stack JUST big enough to maintain fold equity if you let this hand go. So if you choose to c-bet a standard amount on flop (another 150-175) you are down to 400-425 chips. This is a small enough amount that it seriously reduces your fold equity in level 4 (as compared to around 575). That's why I don't like playing this hand with the intention of c-betting. Your stack after the c-bet isn't enough to continue beyond the current hand, so you effectively are playing for your whole stack at that point anyway.

715 just isn't enough IMO to dick around in level 3 because you risk getting crippled. The only way I support the 150 raise is if:

1. There are limpers who may call your raise. Then you are actually playing for TPTK value if you get 2+ callers, and you can abandon the hand with 575 chips left if you face resistance; OR

2. The guys left behind you have been observed to be tight and you can reasonably infer that they will fold to a small raise as often as a push; OR

3. You are comfortable checking behind on the flop if the caller checks to you because you believe you can get him to bluff away a chunk of his stack on the turn or the river. I often make the 125 preflop raise with this in mind, as opposed to a c-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The top of your post is what I would've written as a response to pineapple. I like it.

But I disgaree either partially or entirely with the subsequent 3 points:

1) More limpers, more dead money. I think this make it waaaaay better to push than raise.

2) No one is really folding like 88+ to a raise or a push and you want a call from weak A's, so the only hands we're happy putting in less of our stack against are low pp's. I think we should be pushing to avoid the c-bet issue and to get more money in against weak A's (granted some of them call a raise that call a push... but...)

3. Usually the same people that will bluff off chips are the same that will call light with A's and K's. Maybe this is offset by minimizing losses against low pp's, etc.

What I'm saying is I like pushing in almost any scenario here.