JJ - Really Tough Spot

[scotty34]

Button is absolutely retarded, 85/20 and makes some of the worst plays in history, including some hopeless bluffs
UTG is pretty loose passive - 50/6/.8 over a sample of about 60 hands

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, UTG calls.

River: (9 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

This seems like a pretty awful spot to be in on the river.

Fold the river the first time. If you can't do that, then you don't really have much reason not to call the second time.

[ArturiusX]

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Fold the river the first time. If you can't do that, then you don't really have much reason not to call the second time.

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I hate this advice, we're not folding this river the first time. Any pocket pair could be getting excited.

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Fold the river the first time. If you can't do that, then you don't really have much reason not to call the second time.

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I hate this advice, we're not folding this river the first time. Any pocket pair could be getting excited.

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Exactly. Call/call and cry.

[Transference]

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I hate this advice, we're not folding this river the first time. Any pocket pair could be getting excited.

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That may be but can you imagine him doing this with anything but a pocket pair and can you imagine a LP betting a pocket pair on this river anywhere close to 100% of the time?

By the time you look at how often LP has a pocket pair, how often of those times he calls the flop and turn and how often of those times he leads the river Id say were getting pretty close to less than 1 in 10.

Now factor that we have the dope calling as well, hes a dope but at least some of the time he has a better hand than us here before he raises.

My instinct is to call the first bet as well, but I think theres a compelling case to say that its close.

If you think its not close and is an easy call I think you have to call the raise as well. If its reasonably close the second time I don't think our odds improve enough to overcome how the that the subsequent raise and call influence our chances here.

[scotty34]

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Fold the river the first time. If you can't do that, then you don't really have much reason not to call the second time.

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I hate putting in 2 bets on the river when I am behind. I think that would be an extremely difficult fold to make the first time. You are right though, in that given that UTG just called, I think my chances of being ahead are actually better.

Hmmm.. maybe a poll is in order

[waffle]

i voted fold the second time, and then i looked closer and saw:

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Button is absolutely retarded, 85/20 and makes some of the worst plays in history, including some hopeless bluffs

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it makes me wonder about calling a second time [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[Cancuk]

I think it's a pretty easy fold.

EDIT: I didn't look at the river action very closely, it's not an easy fold, but it's probably +EV to fold the river the second time.

[POKhER]

"A better can be bluffing, A called usally is not"

Due to UTG there, i think you need to lay this down.

without UTG, I call it.

However i'm usually check calling this river to induce bluffs with my read on button and to not get raised in a big pot.

[scotty34]

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However i'm usually check calling this river to induce bluffs with my read on button and to not get raised in a big pot.

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That option was not available to me