Terrible Players vs. Mediocre Players

[adam61]

I'm sure I'll get flamed or called dumb here, but my problems here could just be a personal problem and not an overall one. I know conventional wisdom says that mistakes=opportunities for $$$ and the more your opponent makes the more opportunities you have to exploit for cash.

I know these players are high variance (I'm typically talking about tournament players with 50-100% VPIP at the 22s) but I have never been successful or semi-consistent in beating them. I'm great at bleeding away big stacks against them with TPTK when they would re-raise all-in with A high, or bottom pair, or maybe it's a set or a straight, I can't tell. This isn't a frustration post, It's happened for over a year, and I'm actually on a solid upswing, but this has always been a problem.

Typically I avoid these players early without a great hand. And then late game I try to just push all-in with better hands, using SNG PT suggestions, however, there are much fewer hands to push with against a player with a 60% calling range. So I run into one of two problems typically, either they call my better hand a couple times with nothing and knock me out (I typically have a smaller stack), or they leave me with no opportunities for bubble aggression and I'm just blinded out. Just looking for some general tips to handling bad bad players. I feel I'm best against players who understand the game but just have poor strategy and play maybe 15% more hands than they should. Against maniacs who are either only having fun, don't understand the game, or are just trying to put beats on someone, I'm frustrated confused and lost consistently. I'm embarrassed to say it, but it's always been true. Appreciate any tips, thanks!

[Lori]

Have a much higher ITM and win slightly fewer games.

Lori

[Hendricks433]

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Have a much higher ITM and win slightly fewer games.

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This is my problem at the $11's and $22's. I have like over double the 3rds for 1sts and also 2nds. I know small sample size blah blah blah. But I think Lori is right. Seems like thats the way im making money there right now. I play it sorta safe and try to get ITM and go from there at the low buy ins.

[Hendricks433]

also though doesnt playing for 1st make up for more ootm finishes by getting more 1sts?

i think the first 2 reponses were great and on the money. i was having this same problem as well made a post got some advice( thanks smellkid) and went back to beating up the games the last few days. ive found that i really dont mind the bad players picking up big pots early tends to just loosen up their bad calls later with bottem pair or whatever horrible hand they feel they have to play. just kick back play your game wait until you get closer to the bubble and start picking up the blinds. other thing ive noticed is that at these lower levels people dont really tend to notice your tight playing early and will still pay you off. oh the thing about the value bets crazy how often you will get paid off, also noticed that your average player at the lower levels ( i play the 5.50 and 11's at UB) tend to call big bets on the river with inadequte hands, seem to always think your bluffing.

Some very good posts. Like the OP when I see a wild tard table unfolding early I am already saying to myself "Oh great another third..LOL". I tend to avoid early battles and big hands that I know are going to involve all my chips. I like the advice that a small surgical strike is better than trying to napalm the table early. However sometimes its hard to make good value bets when Donks keep pushing behind you on their 10 6 suited flush draws. But in the long run the odds do pay off..Eventually.. I hope.. LOL

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I know conventional wisdom says that mistakes=opportunities for $$$ and the more your opponent makes the more opportunities you have to exploit for cash.

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This isn't conventional wisdom, it's a mathematical certainty. You make money when your opponents make mistakes. There are considerations in tourney formats (and probably other rare exceptions) that make it possible for your opponents mistakes to hurt you, but those situations aren't frequent enough to really make a big difference (and I don't feel like digging out TOP to see how exactly Sklansky phrases it).

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I feel I'm best against players who understand the game but just have poor strategy and play maybe 15% more hands than they should. Against maniacs who are either only having fun, don't understand the game, or are just trying to put beats on someone, I'm frustrated confused and lost consistently. I'm embarrassed to say it, but it's always been true. Appreciate any tips, thanks!

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If you think playing good players is better/easier for you, they're either not that good and/or you're wrong. I'd much prefer not to have even a casual 2+2/internet reading player at any of my tables. That said, you do need to try to separate the complete idiots, the marginal players, and the good ones as best you can. And you have to attack each differently, depending on the situation. In the long run, a lot more of your money will come from the complete idiots than any other group, even if in any given game there always seems to be one moron running well.

[adam61]

Well that's largely the point of my post. I can seperate the players very well. I'm ok against good players, I feel GREAT against marginal players, and I feel confused how to exploit terrible players. I know they are the best source for money. But in a tournament setting I can't find out the best way to attack them at all. My conventional strategies aren't that good against them, and I can't force them to do what I want like I can a marginal player. So like I said it's not a belief they're worse to play against than marginal players, it's my inability to take advantage I have a problem with.

[Melchiades]

The best way to attack them. Play good hands, and value bet them to death when you catch a nice flop.

please do not take offense to this, I am only quoting from something I once read

"If you can't spot the worst player at the table in the first 30 minutes, then most likely it is you"

I'm thinking you are being too results oriented thinking and therefore concentrating more on receiving bad beats than when you dish em out.

The other thing to consider is that in general, you only know when a hand is played badly by another player because it has been showndown. Bad play happens frequently. Bad play is not necessarily characterized by those players who push money foolishly into the pot on a bluff, but moreso by those who call off their stacks with marginal holdings or against pot odds. Hands that are not shown down, we have no idea what the other player was holding.