Preflop Concept Question

This table is somewhat loose, 4-5 to the flop is not unusual.

You're dealt ATo, on the button.

An EP player limps, 2 MP players limp, the CO limps.

What do you do (fold, limp, or raise)?
Please explain your reasoning.

I raise for value. Also we have position so there is a chance your raise will give us a free card.

[bozlax]

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I raise for value.

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What's your estimate of the preflop equity of ATo?

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Also we have position so there is a chance your raise will give us a free card.

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Give me a hypothetical flop that you're going to check through with ATo after you raise preflop, that wouldn't have been checked to you without a PFR? With likely 5, possibly 6, players acting ahead of you?

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What's your estimate of the preflop equity of ATo?


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Not sure, know its not high. But its a lose table, surely we have an edge over fish playing A9o etc etc ??

[aces_dad]

Against purely random hands AQo doesn't have much of an edge vs A10o, but I still limp the A10o here and raise AQ.

IMO handling the postflop correctly in these cases is much more important than the limp/raise dynamic with A10o.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

2,623,814 games 37.085 secs 70,751 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 30.4766 % 29.39% 01.09% { AcQd }
Hand 2: 17.4014 % 16.39% 01.01% { random }
Hand 3: 17.3937 % 16.38% 01.01% { random }
Hand 4: 17.3366 % 16.32% 01.02% { random }
Hand 5: 17.3918 % 16.38% 01.01% { random }


---

1,901,892 games 23.895 secs 79,593 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 27.5513 % 26.16% 01.39% { AcTd }
Hand 2: 18.1301 % 17.03% 01.10% { random }
Hand 3: 18.1506 % 17.05% 01.10% { random }
Hand 4: 18.0732 % 16.97% 01.10% { random }
Hand 5: 18.0948 % 16.99% 01.10% { random }


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[Koss]

Change the random hands to top 50% and I think you notice quite the boost. ATo has an almost negligible equity edge and AQo still has a few percentage points over the opponents.

[bozlax]

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[ QUOTE ]


What's your estimate of the preflop equity of ATo?


[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure, know its not high. But its a lose table, surely we have an edge over fish playing A9o etc etc ??

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is, in order for your raise to be "for value" you need to have a greater % equity than the % money you're putting into the pot. At this point you're pretty sure you've got 4 players that will call your raise, 1 that's likely, and 1 that's possible. If you can't reliably put your equity at 14% (that's if both blinds and all limpers call the raise...20%+ if you lose the blinds) then you can't strictly raise "for value."

[deception5]

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I raise for value. Also we have position so there is a chance your raise will give us a free card.

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It's not really free if we could just call a flop bet after calling preflop though for the same price.

Man, I'm geeting SK00L3D. NICE, luv it, great to improve knowledge.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise for value. Also we have position so there is a chance your raise will give us a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really free if we could just call a flop bet after calling preflop though for the same price.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's really the same thing, and I think raising preflop for a free card has some value. Say we limp, and the flop is KQ2 with two the same suit as our ace. It's checked to the guy on our left who bets. We're getting like only 6:1 on our draw. If we had raised preflop we might get a free card in what is a bigger pot with a pretty strong draw, which is actually quite valuable.

The questions are though 1) How often do we get a free card (I don't think often enough in these games) 2) How does the value of a free card (some fraction of a BB) compare to the EV lost by raising instead of calling preflop.

But if I was GUARUNTEED a free card on the flop I think that I would be raising A10o, KQo, AJo in these situations where I normally wouldn't