I feel lost...

MarkD · #1 11-04-2005, 01:46 AM

... whenever I play no limit. Here is a recent example.

I do not have a read on villian because:
- I had only been playing this table for about 5-10 hands.
- I do not have any software on my laptop.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($92.38)
SB ($363.15)
Hero ($185)
UTG ($171.65)
UTG+1 ($31.35)
UTG+2 ($180)
MP1 ($208.60)
MP2 ($198)
MP3 ($132.29)
CO ($256.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $2, MP1 calls $2, 4 folds, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $13, UTG+2 calls $13, MP1 calls $13, SB folds.

Flop: ($47) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $20, UTG+2 calls $20, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($87) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $40, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $127

I raised big pre-flop because I wanted to severely limit the field a lot... My position really sucks so I was unsure about potentially building a big pot and although my raise was large I thought this would discourage action. Besides my hand is really good.

I didn't know how to play the hand post-flop at all. $20 seemed like a very reasonable bet on the flop though to find out where I am at... I am really unsure about this though.

swolfe · #2 11-04-2005, 01:55 AM

would you have bet $20 on the flop if you held AA? AK? KK?

MarkD · #3 11-04-2005, 02:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
would you have bet $20 on the flop if you held AA? AK? KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I suppose that I would bet somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-50. Leaning closer to 40ish.

edit: But what can reasonable call a $20 bet on this flop that I beat? From my very limited experience playing NL I can't see a lot of hands this guy could have from this position that would call my big raise pre-flop and a 40% pot bet on this ragged flop.

PinkSteel · #4 11-04-2005, 09:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would you have bet $20 on the flop if you held AA? AK? KK?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I suppose that I would bet somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-50. Leaning closer to 40ish.

edit: But what can reasonable call a $20 bet on this flop that I beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any two cards that have figured out you would bet more than $20 if you have top pair beat, and $20 or less if you don't.

You can't vary your continuation bet size based on the quality of your hand. Your opponents will pick up on it. Lead like you always lead, or check, as you should occasionally, nuts or not.

MarkD · #5 11-04-2005, 09:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would you have bet $20 on the flop if you held AA? AK? KK?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I suppose that I would bet somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-50. Leaning closer to 40ish.

edit: But what can reasonable call a $20 bet on this flop that I beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any two cards that have figured out you would bet more than $20 if you have top pair beat, and $20 or less if you don't.

You can't vary your continuation bet size based on the quality of your hand. Your opponents will pick up on it. Lead like you always lead, or check, as you should occasionally, nuts or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

My continuation bets are about half pot.

Also, this shouldn't matter much. No one at the table knew how I played or what my bets meant - I hadn't made any bets - as I indicated in my original post.

There is no real metagame to this hand and do opponents at 1/2 routinely call these pre-flop raises and flop bets with the idea of taking the hand away on the turn?

I'm really trying to understand this hand... but talking about typical bet sizes here can't be right. It's the first time I've played NL in at least 3 weeks and this was within 10 hands of sitting at the table.

4_2_it · #6 11-04-2005, 09:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There is no real metagame to this hand and do opponents at 1/2 routinely call these pre-flop raises and flop bets with the idea of taking the hand away on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. A good player (and there a few at NL $200) will do just that. Villain has a K or is telling you he has a K beat. I think that biggest mistake you made was not having a plan on how to play this type of hand.

How would normally play a pocket pair OOP in a raised pot with a single overcard on the board? That should be your line here, whether you had 88 or QQ. Your flop bet gave draws correct implied odds to keep drawing. No one with a K is folding to that bet. Your check induced the guy with the king to bet because he didn't want anyone taking a free card. That should tell you that you are beat.

Occasionally, you have to fire a second bullet on the turn to chase out Kxs and chasers as many players give no respect to continuation bets.

Another good line would be to check/raise the flop and if check through, fire out a pot-sized bet on the turn. That will fold any marginal hand that beats you and anyone with a monster will step forward. Notice that you lose about the same amount as you did the way you played it, but these alternatives give you a few additional ways to get better hands to fold.

4_2_it · #7 11-04-2005, 09:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would you have bet $20 on the flop if you held AA? AK? KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I suppose that I would bet somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-50. Leaning closer to 40ish.

edit: But what can reasonable call a $20 bet on this flop that I beat? From my very limited experience playing NL I can't see a lot of hands this guy could have from this position that would call my big raise pre-flop and a 40% pot bet on this ragged flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands is villain limping and calling a raise UTG+2 in full ring? AQ, KQ,KJs, AJs, ATs, any pp? I think you nee dto pot the flop and then fold to his turn bet. If villain is capable of laying down TPTK or AA, a check raise all-in on the turn might work (though I have only done this once and that was with a specific read).

As played I would fold. You are drawing very thin to dead and villain has position so you may not get any more out of him on the river if your card hits.

MarkD · #8 11-04-2005, 09:19 AM

I guess my feeling was this:
I would bet more with the hands you indicate, AA, AK (maybe not KK though)... but does that really matter?

This is a really ragged flop. This guy called a large bet pre-flop from somone raising out of the blinds (ie. showing a lot of strength). Then I came out firing inot this board with a decent bet, and although it is only a half pot bet - it's still $20 and that has to be enough to show these guys I mean business.

After he calls that bet as well he basically has to have a king right?

Well, if all of that is true then why bet more than $20 if $20 will get me all of the information that I need to correctly play my hand?

MarkD · #9 11-06-2005, 03:50 PM

I'm still trying to answer this question... what should I have done? I want to nail down the thought process on this hand - if I can do that I think I will learn alot.

#10 11-06-2005, 04:08 PM

You want a line for this? OK, here it is: check the flop and fold. There I said it. Now everyone can bitch and moan about how weak/tight that is.

But the thing is, you raised with a big hand from the BB. You got two callers--both of whom have position on you. I really have no idea what they limp/call with here. But there's a good chance one of them has a king--probably close to half the time here. With two preflop callers, the pot is now bloated up to almost $50. You have queens and an overcard on board. This is a MARGINAL situation at best. To make a CB, I think you have to bet at least $30. Anything less looks weak. I don't really want to throw out another $30+ with two people behind me and a king on board. So I would c/f the flop. There that's your line.

And one more thing, even if you have the best hand, this is going to be almost impossible to play profitably if anyone calls the flop. There's no shame in just saving your money. I would play A-K the same way if I missed and had two people behind me. That is, I would c/f. Trust me, it's cheaper in the long run.