table talk ethics

[ArtVandelay]

in general, how do you feel about player's talking about hands, reads, etc. in the middle of a multi-way pot? some specific situations below...

pot is multi-way on the flop and it's checked to the button who starts reaching for chips; the BB says "don't bet, you'll regret it" and indeed the button ends up checking; ethical, unethical, or unclear?

pot is three-handed on the turn and it's checked to the button who bets; before the first player can act the button says "careful, you're gonna get check-raise if you call"; ethical, unethical, or unclear?

four-handed on the river, and the first player leads out; the next player says "you're bluffing" and calls; ethical, unethical, or unclear?

[Guernica4000]

pot is multi-way on the flop and it's checked to the button who starts reaching for chips; the BB says "don't bet, you'll regret it" and indeed the button ends up checking; ethical, inethical, or unclear?

Is the BB still in the hand? If so ethical

pot is three-handed on the turn and it's checked to the button who bets; before the first player can act the button says "careful, you're gonna get check-raise if you call"; ethical, inethical, or unclear?

Ethical


four-handed on the river, and the first player leads out; the next player says "you're bluffing" and calls; ethical, inethical, or unclear?

Ethical

By the way inethical isn't a word. The word you are looking for is Unethical

[AaronBrown]

While I agree with you, I would add a caution. The talk itself may be ethical, but if it's intended to gain an unfair result, it's unethical. There are three possible objections a player in a multiway pot might make to a comment by someone else in the pot: collusion, communication of hand information and helping a player play.

The general assumption in Poker is that anything said by a player in the pot is part of the game, intended to maximize his profit, not to communicate information. If he's bad at table talk and actually giving information away, that's his own lookout and other players are entitled to take full advantage. If it happens to work against you, say when you have the best hand and a clumsy table-talker gives away that he holds the second-best hand and induces other players to fold, that's the luck of the game.

But it's easy to cross the line without noticing, and it's even easier to make someone else mad by seeming to cross the line. If that's not your strategy, you should be careful. The most common fight I see is not about collusion or giving away your hand, but in helping someone else play: "watch out, he could have a straight" or "boy, he limped in preflop but now he's raising like crazy." It's true that information is out there for everyone to see, but not everyone sees it.

If you're not in the hand, you should never say anything that might affect the play in any way.

[CurryLover]

We're funny about things in the UK. Speech play of any kind is not allowed during a hand. Some players try it, and sometimes get away with it, but not as often as in the US. At the very least such things are frowned upon. Ethics and morals are subjective. Most UK players would consider all 3 examples from the OP to be unethical, but this is because of the culture in our games over here.

[jtr]

[ QUOTE ]
We're funny about things in the UK. Speech play of any kind is not allowed during a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you play, Currylover? I haven't found this to be the case in UK casino tournaments nor in home games. But you may be playing at higher stakes than me or in a different city perhaps?

[Precept2]

In the OP's 3rd situation, suppose 1st player leads out and 2nd player says, "I know you're bluffing! Someone has to call that." Then he folds.

Is that ethical?

[CurryLover]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We're funny about things in the UK. Speech play of any kind is not allowed during a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you play, Currylover? I haven't found this to be the case in UK casino tournaments nor in home games. But you may be playing at higher stakes than me or in a different city perhaps?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play mainly in Manchester, Blackpool and Sheffield. Like I said, some players do try speech play and often get away with it. However, it is generally frowned upon whereas in the US a lot of the table talk is considered 'part of the game'. I know that in some games (usually bigger games) a player's hand is declared dead if he engages in any speech play at all. And these rules are strictly enforced. A friend of mine once had his hand disqualified because he asked "what game are we playing?" in the middle of a hand during a high stakes dealer's choice game.

Others may correct me, but in the US many types of speech play are considered 'part of the game' that, in the UK, would be considered highly unethical, possibly cheating (and may lead to a hand being disqualified in card rooms that do what they say they will). Examples might be:

Betting with a flush and saying "I want to find out who has the flush"

Betting on a AAA flop and stating "let's see if anyone has the A"

Stating "I know I'm behind, but I call" when you flop the nuts.

My personal opinion is that players should just play their hands and not comment at all apart from to ask clarification questions like "how much money have you got left in your stack?" or "how much is it to me?". All of this nonsense like asking your opponent what he has when contemplating a call is at the very least ungentlemanly. But then, that's my cultural bias - in other countries such things would be considered completely acceptable.

I think aaron brown nailed this one. well said.

[ QUOTE ]

By the way inethical isn't a word. The word you are looking for is Unethical

[/ QUOTE ]


It's a perfectly cromulent word.

[willthethrill]

I believe that if two players are in a hand together they can say whatever they want to each other. It's all part of the reading and bluffing psychology. What pisses me off is when people who are out of the action start talking. When they point out things that the player in the hand didn't notice or know.