river questions

RustyCJ · #1 10-29-2005, 03:08 PM

Value betting the river is a struggle for me, when to check and when to bet, here are a couple hands I have questions on. Should i have played either of these differently along the way?

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO calls, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.70 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (10.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO raises, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 18.70 BB

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls, 4 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.70 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls.

River: (6.70 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.70 BB

PokerSparky · #2 10-29-2005, 03:13 PM

There's no other way to play both of these hands IMO. Without reads, I call the river raise in both of them and expect to lose both of them.

RustyCJ · #3 10-29-2005, 03:16 PM

my thoughts too, but with all the problems I've on the river lately I'm going to post numerous hands with river problems/questions.

PokerSparky · #4 10-29-2005, 03:19 PM

FWIW, I think river value betting is one of the most difficult aspects of becoming a good poker player. I'm still wrestling with it.

adsman · #5 10-29-2005, 03:19 PM

Hand 1 I checkraise the turn.
Hand 2 I checkcall the river.

kai · #6 10-29-2005, 03:22 PM

Without any reads how do you know MP3 will bet the turn? Do you really wanna risk giving a free card here?

shadow29 · #7 10-29-2005, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I checkraise the turn.
Hand 2 I checkcall the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't do either of these.

adsman · #8 10-31-2005, 03:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I checkraise the turn.
Hand 2 I checkcall the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't do either of these.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, hand 2 I now think is a value bet after reading the other posts on it.
I like a checkraise on hand 1 though to balance my strategy. If you bet your good hands often on the flop and then checkraise them a good proportion of the time on the turn, more observent opponents will tend to check after you for fear of getting checkraised when you don't want to call a bet on the turn, say when your overcards have missed.
Unobservent opponents will continue to bet and get checkraised when you have got a good hand. Best of both worlds. Also good at knocking opponents out.

Aaron W. · #9 10-31-2005, 03:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like a checkraise on hand 1 though to balance my strategy. If you bet your good hands often on the flop and then checkraise them a good proportion of the time on the turn, more observent opponents will tend to check after you for fear of getting checkraised when you don't want to call a bet on the turn, say when your overcards have missed.
Unobservent opponents will continue to bet and get checkraised when you have got a good hand. Best of both worlds. Also good at knocking opponents out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't buy this at all at these levels.

1) If you ever think about check-raising, you need to have a reason to think someone is going to bet it. Check-raising the turn after betting the flop often leads to giving up free cards and lost value.
2) Do you really want to knock out players with a check-raise when they'll call unprofitably with as few as two outs?
3) Yes, I know where you're coming from (HPFAP p. 141), but you're not reading it in the proper context. "THEREFORE, TO AVOID GIVING YOUR HAND AWAY..." does not apply to most of these games since many villains don't read hands well enough. You need to read the entire paragraph, which ends "as long as free cards are not a problem and YOUR OPPONENTS ARE AGGRESSIVE." Lacking those reads, betting has far more value than checking. (See #1)
4) Can you fold to a 3-bet? If not, you don't want to put yourself in a position where the situation implies you are beat, but you're still going to call another 2 BB and get to a showdown.

adsman · #10 10-31-2005, 04:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't buy this at all at these levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're probably right. Just trying to throw ideas around. But...

[ QUOTE ]
1) If you ever think about check-raising, you need to have a reason to think someone is going to bet it. Check-raising the turn after betting the flop often leads to giving up free cards and lost value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that players at these levels will often take this as a sign of weakness and bet.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Do you really want to knock out players with a check-raise when they'll call unprofitably with as few as two outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but what if they call two? That would be cool.

[ QUOTE ]
3) Yes, I know where you're coming from (HPFAP p. 141), but you're not reading it in the proper context. "THEREFORE, TO AVOID GIVING YOUR HAND AWAY..." does not apply to most of these games since many villains don't read hands well enough. You need to read the entire paragraph, which ends "as long as free cards are not a problem and YOUR OPPONENTS ARE AGGRESSIVE." Lacking those reads, betting has far more value than checking. (See #1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. Though I will say that against players at these levels you don't have to avoid giving your hand away, they're not paying that much attention anyway. Which means you could collect double the bets on the turn that you're used to. Or not.

[ QUOTE ]
4) Can you fold to a 3-bet? If not, you don't want to put yourself in a position where the situation implies you are beat, but you're still going to call another 2 BB and get to a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you can't make a point that the players aren't aggressive enough to do this and then go on to say that you stand a fair chance of being 3 bet.

I wouldn't do this all the time and I've never done it before, but I'm slowing trying to incorporate this play into my arsenal and the results have been surprising. It's also been very difficult to incorporate it as I have become so conditioned to just straight up betting my good hands on the turn without considering other options.
I think that it would have been an interesting play in this hand, but whatever. I'm going to have a look through my last few days play and see if I can come up with a good example to post.