Two differences of opinion

[DarrenX]

Two hands from the Super Tuesday last night on which my friend and I differ- quick poll:

Hand 1- Just moved to table- 505 after posting 50 BB. Avg stack is 2000ish. UTG+1 (4500ish) raises standard to 150, mp w/900 cold calls- folded to you with a couple black eights... it's pretty obvious you...

Hand 2- 945 on the button, 50/100 blinds, average around 2500. Folded to CO (2200) who makes standard 300 raise- you have 77 on the button

First hand, I wouldn't push or fold. I'd call and hope to spike an 8.

Second hand, I'd fold.

I voted fold for the first though a push isn't all bad if you're itching for more chips. I reckon you might get one of them to fold.

Hand two is an easy push if you ask me. You might have some fold equity in there. I would be cautious if the blinds had very few chips or a huge dominating stack.

[DarrenX]

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Second hand, I'd fold.

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Just curious how you voted, then. When I checked the results they were 6 to 0 in favor of pushing...?

Reread it, skimmed the first time and didn't see the stack size. Yes, hand 2 I'd push.

I thought stacks were bigger, with your stacks being small, I don't mind pushes in either spot as much.

For some reason, I thought I read that your stack was about 2000 on the second hand, my mistake.

[sirpupnyc]

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First hand, I wouldn't push or fold. I'd call and hope to spike an 8.

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Isn't this the most horribly wrong thing we could do? Sure, if an 8 flops we're probably doubling up or even tripling, but if it doesn't we're folding to any bet and we've wasted nearly 20% of our stack.

We are getting good odds on a call, and if you go all in, there is no guarantee that both of them aren't going to call you.

If you call, you still got 8 bb's, may not seem like much, but if you call and the flop comes AK6, you can be safe to get out of their way and live to fight the good fight another time.

I don't see anything wrong with pushing either, but I also don't see a thing wrong with calling.

[sirpupnyc]

Well, I'm not completely in favor of a push, since the raiser is almost certainly calling (he has almost 10x our stack) and once he's in the cold-caller has plenty good odds. Plus, cold-caller is either a moron (so he might actually fold in the face of good odds) thinking he could see a cheapish flop with his high-marginal hand, or he's sitting on a monster and suspected we'd push if he waited to get his money in.

But to me, that's still all argument for a fold rather than a call. (Though I've probably just called in situations very much like this one, and I'll probably do so again.)

[adanthar]

Hand 1 is almost completely read dependent. Hand 2 is an instapush.

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Hand 1 is almost completely read dependent. Hand 2 is an instapush.

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My exact thoughts. Swear. Scared me when I saw it in print.