77 in the CO

#1 10-25-2005, 09:32 AM

SB is a calling station. BB is a maniac. I hate how I played this hand. What's YOUR line?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB raises, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

dopp16 · #2 10-25-2005, 09:43 AM

i think that its likely the SB has a 3 and maybe the bb is overplaying his aq. I may put three-bets in on the flop to push the SB out of there. if I get capped, Im in trouble if he calls,, then call down

#3 10-25-2005, 10:18 AM

why do you think SB has a 3. Wouldn't he either bet or c/r the turn if he did. I don't see him checking turn and river with a 3 because he is afraid of us having a K. Hero raised in CO first in, SB could put him on huge range of hands

#4 10-25-2005, 10:27 AM

Considering the reads you posted, this looks standard to me. I don't see a fold anywhere against the maniacal bettor. By calling down you make the most when you're ahead and lose the least when you're behind.

#5 10-25-2005, 11:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Considering the reads you posted, this looks standard to me. I don't see a fold anywhere against the maniacal bettor. By calling down you make the most when you're ahead and lose the least when you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I didn't give BB credit for anything. He had jammed the pot more than once with air. He LOVED to bluff. But would you consider raising the turn or the river to try to knock SB out? Or that too risky?

I don't know... Maybe I didn't misplay this hand so badly after all? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

#6 10-25-2005, 11:15 AM

Considering SB is a calling station, it probably is a bit risky. Anyway, what do you think he has that is beating you? Let him call down with a 3, 4 or even A-high. If he has a higher PP, well, them's the breaks.

EDIT: oh man I misread the board. Didn't see the 3 repeat. Ignore me please!

W. Deranged · #7 10-25-2005, 11:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Considering the reads you posted, this looks standard to me. I don't see a fold anywhere against the maniacal bettor. By calling down you make the most when you're ahead and lose the least when you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against calling stations and maniacs who can be playing basically anything, calling down seems quite likely to win less than the max when ahead.

I don't think the question here is where hero can find a fold. It's where hero can find the correct opportunity to put in another raise. I don't think a kind of wa/wb approach really applies here because:

1. We are against players who are sort of incapable of folding.

2. I think that, at least on the flop, we are ahead way more often than way behind.

3. Our hand is very vulnerable, and hence we are never "way ahead," but need to play aggressively early to at least try to protect our hand/makes opponent's with weak holdings pay the max.

#8 10-25-2005, 11:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Considering the reads you posted, this looks standard to me. I don't see a fold anywhere against the maniacal bettor. By calling down you make the most when you're ahead and lose the least when you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against calling stations and maniacs who can be playing basically anything, calling down seems quite likely to win less than the max when ahead.

I don't think the question here is where hero can find a fold. It's where hero can find the correct opportunity to put in another raise. I don't think a kind of wa/wb approach really applies here because:

1. We are against players who are sort of incapable of folding.

2. I think that, at least on the flop, we are ahead way more often than way behind.

3. Our hand is very vulnerable, and hence we are never "way ahead," but need to play aggressively early to at least try to protect our hand/makes opponent's with weak holdings pay the max.

[/ QUOTE ]

All good points. I guess I had a brain explosion and thought we'd somehow know the board would come with undercards to our pocket pair.

W. Deranged · #9 10-25-2005, 11:11 AM

Do you think that either three-betting the flop or raising the turn would encourage SB to fold?

If so, I think there's a lot to be said for one of those lines. Raising the turn is super high-variance, as villain might have a 3 that just pulled ahead of you, and very often you're going to get three-bet anyway by hands like 44 or A-high, and you cannot fold to a three-bet.

So I think three-betting the flop is the way to go. Villain may have a K, but he's a nut, so he's as likely to have air. SB could have anything here as well. So a flop three-bet is as much for value as it is for the potential protection we might get by getting SB to fold. We should note that it is very likely that SB has 6 clean outs against us and we'd really like him to fold.

So I think this was a case of putting the breaks on a little too early against the maniac. Use the early, small bet streets to make tactical maneuvers against such players and to extract max value.

#10 10-25-2005, 12:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that either three-betting the flop or raising the turn would encourage SB to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Somehow I think it's possible... Well, not so much on the flop, but he agonized for a good ten seconds before calling on the river. I thought he was going to time out before he finally found the call button. It seemed like a crying call for sure, and if that's the case, a raise would have knocked him out. But who knows, it doesn't have to be a tell, maybe his internet connection was acting up or something...

There's a section in SSHE called "When You Do Not Want Overcalls" that I think applies here... But I just hate raising a marginal hand when there's like a fifty-fifty chance I'm being called. And since I have a long history against this particular player, I know that he's not likely to fold... Well, obviously I'm clueless in this hand.

As you pointed out, raising either the turn or the river is bad for variance, and I hate variance with a passion, so maybe I should be happy with calling here...

SB: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]