An AA hand at party skins 20/40

DeathDonkey · #1 10-25-2005, 05:33 AM

MP3 is unknown to me but has solid TAG stats and is also playing in the 50 and 100 games, that's what I knew. UTG+1 is very very bad, loose passive.

Call or raise on the turn? I assume flop is standard.

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $20. CO posts a blind of $30.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 raises, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets

AceHigh · #2 10-25-2005, 11:47 AM

I don't raise the flop. You want to get to the river cheap if you can and you don't want to get into a raising war with a hand that has you drawing dead.

So I would just call the turn also.

#3 10-25-2005, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP3 is unknown to me but has solid TAG stats and is also playing in the 50 and 100 games, that's what I knew. UTG+1 is very very bad, loose passive.

Call or raise on the turn? I assume flop is standard.

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $20. CO posts a blind of $30.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 raises, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets

[/ QUOTE ]
On this scary board I would not raise the flop, I would call the flop with the intention of raising a blank turn. I dont like investing a lot of money on the flop when I know there are several cards that can hit the turn that will make me instafold. Also If I raised the turn and I was reraised, I would fold against a sane player, and If i was just called I would check the river unimproved. Given the way you played the hand you must raise the turn to protect your hand the times it is good. If you were just one on one, I would call down instead of raising.

DeathDonkey · #4 10-25-2005, 08:01 PM

Hey Westley,

I pretty much agree with your thoughts in retrospect, I really need to raise this turn to protect my hand from the third player, it looks like MP3 is worried I'll take a free card with a big club, as it doesn't seem like he'd play a monster this way. I didn't consider coldcalling the flop at the time, maybe I should have.

-DeathDonkey

BoxTree · #5 10-25-2005, 08:19 PM

I cold-call the flop. Raise the turn if it's a brick. Your RIO are pretty bad and you don't have much equity in a five-way pot. Actually, if the flop were just a little bit worse (say, 876c instead of 864c), your equity would actually be LESS than that of a random hand:

1,215,471 games 6.089 secs 199,617 games/sec

Board: 8c 7c 6c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 19.1923 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { AsAh }
Hand 2: 20.2163 % [ 00.19 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 3: 20.2290 % [ 00.19 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 4: 20.1915 % [ 00.19 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 5: 20.1709 % [ 00.19 00.02 ] { random }

So yeah, cold-call the flop and raise a non-scary turn (and fold to a 3-bet).

TStoneMBD · #6 10-25-2005, 08:39 PM

i think 3betting the flop is vital to try and drive some players out. your equity isnt great but its better when you eliminate hands with outs. after the turn i think just calling is necessary.

mmcd · #7 10-25-2005, 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think 3betting the flop is vital to try and drive some players out. your equity isnt great but its better when you eliminate hands with outs. after the turn i think just calling is necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

You still have to raise the turn. The first guy might fold any non-A club for 2 cold on the big street, and the poster could easily have something like red K8 that didn't want to give a free card (and will call down on a blank river). This really looks like a situation where the poster has an ok/mediocre made hand and the other guy has overcards with a club.

TStoneMBD · #8 10-25-2005, 09:54 PM

sure there are advantages to raising, but you didnt touch on the disadvantages. what do you do when 3 bet and based on your decision how do you think that relates to just calling instead and why?

mmcd · #9 10-25-2005, 11:38 PM

what do you do when 3 bet and based on your decision how do you think that relates to just calling instead and why?

If UTG+1 check/3-bets the turn, I insta-muck.

If UTG+1 cold-calls and the poster 3-bets I'd probably fold but depending on my feel/read at the time, I might call the 3-bet and call the river if it's a non-club that pairs the board or the non-club ace.

If UTG+1 folds and the poster 3-bets, I call and decide on the river when it comes.

I don't think getting 3-bet should be a huge concern here though. If UTG+1 3-bets, you're drawing dead.

If the poster 3-bets when it's 3-way, you might still be live to a raggy two pair, but your probably drawing dead, and can fold absent some sort of read.

If the poster 3-bets heads up, it can make for a slightly uncomfortable situation, but you managed to get rid of UTG+1's flush draw.

I don't think any of this matters much though because I think you'll get 3-bet very rarely here.

The VAST majority of the time, UTG+1 either coldcalls or folds and the poster calls. If the river is a blank, they'll check to you, you bet, UTG+1 folds and the poster crying calls.

TStoneMBD · #10 10-26-2005, 12:57 AM

im really surprised to hear you say that you think youll rarely get 3bet by the turn donker. hes representing a very strong hand and id imagine he 3bets quite a bit. youre saying you would probably call the turn 3 bet because you think you will be drawing to a live twopair often enough which implies that you think villain will 3bet the turn with twopair a good percentage of the time, which leads me to believe that some of your logic is contradicting because you say you dont think you will be 3bet that often.

if you fold to a turn 3bet when you are drawing to a live twopair, thats alot of pot equity that you passed up on. if you call the turn and fold the river youll be getting 17:1 that your hand is best. folding might be correct but you certainly still have pot equity with a pot that large that you dont want to pass up on.

i think after the player donks into you on the turn youre trailing more often than youre ahead if not by a good portion of the time. if youre somehow ahead at this point its hard to believe that the donk bettor doesnt have a club to accompany his pair, so raising to eliminate a club from UTG+1 doesnt have much equity.