Lets try this again...

[gomberg]

5-10 full stars, UTG w/ red KK ~$1k effective stack.

Loose limper (27/19) late, blinds check.

flop (~$30) T5c6c. I bet $30, late limper raises to $120, I call.

turn (~$270) 4o. I check, limper bets $200, I push. Good / bad?

this guy was an autobettor if checked to esp. after a raise on flop (not capable of free card if he had a draw). He also should have thought I was tight postflop (not sure of this though).

[Garland]

Let me get this straight.

You limped UTG with the intent to limp-reraise, but failed. Now you're going against a loose limper who basically has a random hand, and you're willing to put in your whole stack on the turn, where basically no better hand will fold?

Need to know more about his post-flop play. Specifically the range of flop raising hands: TPTK, TPGK, Two pair? Draw? By the time he bets the turn, I doubt it's a draw.

[ QUOTE ]
(not capable of free card if he had a draw)

[/ QUOTE ]

Reread the post, and decided it means that he will make a turn continuation bet with a draw. However, I still don't like the line much due to you being in the dark.

Since you described the loose limper as an auto-better. I think the far better line is to check-raise the flop big, and lead the turn. If he raises or flat calls you on the turn, you'll probably have to give him credit for some sort of hand without putting your whole stack in and without risking a free turn card in case he has some sort of club or straight draw. This is the line for aggressive players. I will often play small pot when I fail to get in a raise with a big pair preflop.

Garland

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
You limped UTG with the intent to limp-reraise, but failed. Now you're going against a loose limper who basically has a random hand, and you're willing to put in your whole stack on the turn, where basically no better hand will fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

With his view of me, he would fold a low 2-pair hand there to my bet, as well as a good draw - plus I'm representing a straight - so he may even fold a low set (although I don't think he has one here) to that bet. He has to think I'm only raising a monster there - so in essence my hand could be a bluff [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

His most likely hand is something like 9T-AT, 34-78 - he usually raises pairs / suited connectors - so a set was more unlikely in my mind from his preflop play.

His raise on the flop against me is most likely a draw or TP. Follow-through on the turn is the same range.

I don't like check-raising this flop that much, as he can then easily push back with a decent draw and put me in a rough spot...

I'm not sure why I thought this could be a big pot hand - had to do mostly with opponent. F**k pot control [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[psuasskicker]

With his view of me, he would fold a low 2-pair hand there to my bet, as well as a good draw - plus I'm representing a straight - so he may even fold a low set (although I don't think he has one here) to that bet.

Limp 78 from UTG a lot, eh?

You really think he'd fold a low two pair there? I think you're representing what you actually have...a big pocket pair that tried to get tricky.

I think you get called by better hands, and probably the only hand you have a hope of getting a call from that you beat is AT, more specifically A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] which still isn't all that great from you.

Unless he's too loose with his calls or too tight with his folds. If you really think:
- he'll fold better hands, or
- he'll call many worse hands,
then I think you can justify this move. But on this dry a board I don't think he'll fold a better hand too often if ever. And again, on this dry a board, I don't think he'll call with many you beat.

I think it's better to just let him keep blowing money off to you. Do you really think he's on a better hand than you?

- C -

[gomberg]

I thought there was a decent chance of a draw - and yes, I do limp suited connectors UTG a decent percentage of the time to cover for my limps w/ high PP a decent percentage of the time. How am I not representing a set or a strt. here?

[psuasskicker]

I thought there was a decent chance of a draw - and yes, I do limp suited connectors UTG a decent percentage of the time to cover for my limps w/ high PP a decent percentage of the time.

You mean you thought he was drawing, or that he put you on a draw?

I limp sc's as well at times...

How am I not representing a set or a strt. here?

I think it's what you're trying to represent, but the bet out on the flop and cr on the turn don't scream it to me. It's possible, but I also think for someone on a low two pair, he can put you on an overpair or TP + flush draw enough of the time that he has to call getting about 2 to 1.

I just don't think it's very likely at all that he'll fold a better hand.

Also, if I just call, how do I deal with the river?

Who cares what he bets? You're willing to blow off your whole stack on the turn in a situation where you're telling us that you'll only get called if you're beat (if he's folding better hands, I'm assuming he'll fold every worse hand other than maybe TP + flush draw), but you're not willing to call an all in bet on the river?

- C -

[gomberg]

Also, if I just call, how do I deal with the river? This guy is aggro enough to fire on a lot of scary cards and I could make a huge mistake, there are a ton of cards i don't like. A blocking bet is a possibility, but not sure...

[flawless_victory]

just go ahead and clarify PLZ.
bluff or value bet? i cant tell...

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
just go ahead and clarify PLZ.
bluff or value bet? i cant tell...

[/ QUOTE ]

both - but also a protection bet cause I'm OOP on a draw heavy board.

[BobboFitos]

I dont like it because it was limped pot, but it all comes down to how you view his flop raise.

As for people who ask "is this a value bet or bluff," it's a 2way bet. It's unlikely to be called by a worse hand, (although it could) but a large % of the time Gom has best hand.

Hmm, backwards logic you say? Not so, because just calling lets those worse hands - mainly draws and one pair - get a free chance to outdraw when they would've folded.

Since you have reverse implied odds for the river (ala; how do I handle half the deck??) and if you're going to c/c busted hands then, (at the same time lose max to better hands) it's better to stick it in now and pray he doesn't have you beat. (Or, suckout. Or, folds a better hand)

I'm a little bit reckless sometimes, (granted, I also play shorthanded, where recklessness is a little more acceptable) and this doesnt look bad to me at all, but going to repeat, it's a limped pot, you got raised on this flop, you really need to break down his flopraise and then the rest of the hand becomes standard.