Waiting for turn - 2 examples

#1 10-24-2005, 12:46 PM

Can someone please tell me if I mis-played these 2 hands where I waited until the turn to raise rather than on the flop. Should I have been more straight forward & just raise up the flop? In the first example I figured a flop raise wouldn't push out any flush draws so a turn-raise would be more effective at hand protection. For the second hand, I didnt forsee any hands catching up to my set so the flop slow-play was more out of greed since I had so much action behind me.

Btw, these were both from the same table. Only big read I had was that the player on my immediate right - UTG+1 in hand 1 and CO in hand 2 was a complete 'tard. I've seen him raise 4th & 5th st. after peeling midle or bottom pair ... i [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] PP beginner tables

Hand 1:
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

Hand 2:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

River: (23.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG raises, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 31.50 BB

MrWookie47 · #2 10-24-2005, 01:16 PM

These are both flop raises. Both of these hands have large equity edges, and you want to exploit that while you have the whole field trapped and ready to pay you more money.

bozlax · #3 10-24-2005, 01:20 PM

On Hand 1 I agree. The bet on the flop came from EP, and there were 2 callers before it got to our Hero...plus the pot was already large.

On Hand 2, the bet came from his immediate right, so rather than trapping the entire field he'd be facing the entire field with 2. And the pot was small when the flop came to him. I don't hate waiting, here.

MrWookie47 · #4 10-24-2005, 01:23 PM

Yeah, the board is pretty drawless, but you're likely just going to be facing the field with two BB cold on the turn, rather than 2 SB cold on the flop. Eh, I guess the pot was small. I can see waiting.

sean c · #5 10-24-2005, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On Hand 1 I agree. The bet on the flop came from EP, and there were 2 callers before it got to our Hero...plus the pot was already large.

On Hand 2, the bet came from his immediate right, so rather than trapping the entire field he'd be facing the entire field with 2. And the pot was small when the flop came to him. I don't hate waiting, here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree i probably wait for the turn in hand #2. Then again if everyone else knows the lagtard is betting with anything here and you have an aggressive image raising isn't bad your likely to get some cold calls at this type of table.

SocialWelfareIV · #6 10-24-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
These are both flop raises. Both of these hands have large equity edges, and you want to exploit that while you have the whole field trapped and ready to pay you more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole field is not trapped in hand 2. There are three players that have yet to put a bet into the pot on the flop. I like calling here if they'll call one but not two with weak holdings.

Since villains are calling two cold on the turn, they'd probably call two on the flop so a raise would've been better.

Hand 1 is an easy raise on the flop. I'm not a fan of the three bet on the turn.

#7 10-24-2005, 01:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These are both flop raises. Both of these hands have large equity edges, and you want to exploit that while you have the whole field trapped and ready to pay you more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole field is not trapped in hand 2. There are three players that have yet to put a bet into the pot on the flop. I like calling here if they'll call one but not two with weak holdings.

Since villains are calling two cold on the turn, they'd probably call two on the flop so a raise would've been better.

Hand 1 is an easy raise on the flop. I'm not a fan of the three bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

For hand 1, with a draw-heavy board I am having trouble understanding when something is an easy flop raise vs. waiting until the turn (a la Ed Miller) ... maybe I am misunderstanding that concept from SSHE ...

MrWookie47 · #8 10-24-2005, 01:59 PM

There is a possible flush draw, and a possible straight draw. That's it. It's not a given that there's a flush draw, and the straight draw is low, making it less likely. In SSH, waiting was called for in the TT hand because there was a straight draw, a flush draw AND overcards that could come, significantly reducing the equity of TT. There aren't that many scare cards in your AJ hand.

#9 10-24-2005, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There is a possible flush draw, and a possible straight draw. That's it. It's not a given that there's a flush draw, and the straight draw is low, making it less likely. In SSH, waiting was called for in the TT hand because there was a straight draw, a flush draw AND overcards that could come, significantly reducing the equity of TT. There aren't that many scare cards in your AJ hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking more along the lines of this hand where "da man" waits for the turn with an overpair.

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...t=all&vc=1

Is this example way with an overpair way different than my example with TP?

#10 10-24-2005, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Since villains are calling two cold on the turn, they'd probably call two on the flop so a raise would've been better.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i knew they are going to call 2 cold regardless on either street, won't I get more money in the pot raising the turn rather than raising the flop & having it checked to me for just 1 turn bet? It seems this way I am (1) getting more money in the pot and (2) getting more in teh pot when I have a better chance to win it with only 1 card to come.