fighting the TAGs

[Wynton]

I believe I have some major shortcomings playing the tighter players, probably because I'm too focused on exploiting the loose/passives. So I'm looking for some general feedback.

One problem I have is that I think give too much credit to a "tight" player (i.e., VP$P 22% and lower, 15% pfr range). For some reason, I assume a pf raise from these types means a high pair or AK or AQ, even though I have similar numbers and raise with a considerably larger range. Thus, if the TAG open-raises ahead of me, I'm probably folding some hands that I should 3-bet instead.

And I think I might be giving up on hands too soon postflop as well. If I raise with something like AQ or even AK pf, and the TAG reraises me, I often don't fight for the pot if the flop is trashy. But it occurs to me that perhaps this is precisely the situation when I should show aggression, since these types of opponents are probably capable of folding overcards.

And maybe I should be doing more turn c/r bluffing against the TAGS also.

Any opinions (aside from just trying to avoid TAGs in the first place)?

[Spartan1983]

Good question. I'm also guilty of a lot of the same things as yourself. I'm interested in the response too. From a common sense point of view, I'm sure if you c/r occasionally and 3bet them some, the TAG's will lay down some hands. The obvious thing is timing and the right TAG. I've seen TAG's who when they finally play a hand won't hardly lay it down no matter the aggression against them or the number of players. Some are so tight when they finally get involved I think they lose a little perspective of what the other players might have in their hand. I say pick your spots and note how they react. Do they automatically re-raise, do they hesitate and become a passive calling station? Do they autofold? 2 people with the same preflop stats are going to react differently to aggression within the hand, some take it as slap in the face, others run scared.

[sthief09]

against the TAGs, you can be laggier with position but should be much tigher out of position. think about how much it sucks to get 3-bet out of position. put them in that situation

[ipp147]

Hi Wynton,

Just one thing.

TAG's preflop stats are not nearly as representative of his postflop playing style as LAG's or LAP's preflop stats are.

What I mean by this is that it is very rare for a 45/22 to keep going into a shell postflop and likewise a 48/6 does not consistently go nuts postflop.

I think you have to firstly identify what type of TAG he is postflop before you decide how to counter him.

I am re-reading Feeneys ITPM at the moment. He says (although I imagine he had a much smaller opponent line-up than you have) that he recorded opponents postflop tendencies/tactics and basically worked out the best way to counter them. I would guess you could split TAG's postflop into a number of categories and try and do the same.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]

TAG's preflop stats are not nearly as representative of his postflop playing style as LAG's or LAP's preflop stats are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was afraid someone might say this (as it surely complicates things). This sounds likely, but is it really true?

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

TAG's preflop stats are not nearly as representative of his postflop playing style as LAG's or LAP's preflop stats are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was afraid someone might say this (as it surely complicates things). This sounds likely, but is it really true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of how many 25/16 players you see. Then go ahead and look at their post flops stats. I think you will see a lot of guys with high flop aggression, but they are folding a very high percentage of their hands to a flop bet (probably not so much after they three bet). But a lot of these guys go passive on the turn.

You can get a handle on a lot of these guys, by looking at aggression by street, fold to bet%, WTSD/W$SD... etc.

SO to apply to your situation, if you have a TAG type open raising and see he likes to fold many flops, a 3-bet followed by the standard continuation bet will yield some suprising results for you.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
You can get a handle on a lot of these guys, by looking at aggression by street, fold to bet%, WTSD/W$SD... etc.

SO to apply to your situation, if you have a TAG type open raising and see he likes to fold many flops, a 3-bet followed by the standard continuation bet will yield some suprising results for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I think the problem is that it takes a lot of hands before the post-flop aggression stats are reliable.

Still, I'm guessing now that most 22/15 types fall into the category of players who will NOT go to the river with just overcards, at least not when 3-bet pf by another 22/15. And in light of the hands Cartman posted, I'm becoming convinced that 3-betting pf (at least in position) is often going to be superior to folding.

To offer one specific example: if TAG villain has raised pf from utg or mp, in the past I'd have been inclined to fold AJo or A10o. But if I 3-bet those hands (assuming I believe I can get it hu), the villain is going to be in a somewhat difficult position with many types of flops.

[ipp147]

[ QUOTE ]
Still, I'm guessing now that most 22/15 types fall into the category of players who will NOT go to the river with just overcards, at least not when 3-bet pf by another 22/15.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that some players with TAG stats will never get to showdown with A high if you fire at three streets.


[ QUOTE ]
And in light of the hands Cartman posted, I'm becoming convinced that 3-betting pf (at least in position) is often going to be superior to folding.

To offer one specific example: if TAG villain has raised pf from utg or mp, in the past I'd have been inclined to fold AJo or A10o. But if I 3-bet those hands (assuming I believe I can get it hu), the villain is going to be in a somewhat difficult position with many types of flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you would need to see a representative breakdown of what a 22/15 player raises UTG before you can make this decision.

I would say it would be AA-88. A9s+. ATo+. KJs+. KQo.

Therefore I would probably need TT+. AJs+. AQo+ to 3 bet an UTG raise. I would expand/reduce this range depending on the PFR's went to showdown %, postflop aggression etc.

[rory]

It only takes one hand if you pay attention to their cards at showdown.

[ipp147]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

TAG's preflop stats are not nearly as representative of his postflop playing style as LAG's or LAP's preflop stats are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was afraid someone might say this (as it surely complicates things). This sounds likely, but is it really true?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is because preflop is one of the easiest things to get correctly. If you are a 69/3 player then you don't suddenly become superb postflop as that takes study, practise and knolwedge and if you did that then you wouldn't play 69/3 preflop.

In a nutshell I think I mean that there are 69/3 players and 44/30 players who are both bad players but are consistently bad (LAP/LAG) pre and post flop.

There are 22/15 players and 30/22 player who are correct preflop but not always correct postflop.

I think that stheif's reply earlier in this thread is the best way to look at it if you want a blanket statement to help.

I believe that at least splitting your TAG opponents into "good postflop" or "bad postflop because"

Again, if you are at party and play 5/10 the pool of opponents may be too big for this to be worthwhile. I think that most TAG's though are exploitable in certain areas.