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#1
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Quiz: Draw dead preflip with AA
Inspired by a discussion on this board, I have a quiz question regarding holdem poker:
What is the minimum number of opponents where you can draw dead preflop with AA? Which cards should each of these players hold? By drawing dead, I mean that the player should not be able to win the pot or get a split of it no matter what cards hit the board. |
#2
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Re: Quiz: Draw dead preflip with AA
I don't know about the minimum. I tried to create a scenario where AA had 0% preflop equity.
AA vs.. 33 44 55 66 77 88 99 TT JJ KK KK A2 A2 22 |
#3
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Re: Quiz: Draw dead preflip with AA
Hi, thanks for your suggestion.
I guess with your given hands, there is a possibility for the board to show a straight flush for a split between all players. Depending on the suits there is also a possibility for AA to draw the highest flush. There is a solution where AA draws dead and with less than 15 players on the table. |
#4
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Re: Quiz: Draw dead preflip with AA
You have to stop:
- Quads and sets This requires that both other aces be out - Board four flushes (includes straight flush) this requires that 9 out of 13 of each Ace's suit are in other player's hands. (total:18 cards) - Board three trips (e.g. 77749) which gives a full house. Requires that every card 2-K is present at least once (total: 12 cards) Having every card out also satisfies the requirement that someone will have at least 2 pair to beat AA no matter what comes. - 10-A and A-5 straight Requires that all of (K or Q or J or 10) are out AND a 6 is out So we can see it cannot be done with less than 9 hands (18/2). Putting this all together gives: You hold AdAh. Opponent's cards are: AsAc KsKc KhKd QhJd Th9d 8h7d 6h5d 4h3d Now we need a 2, 3 more hearts, 3 more diamonds: Qd2h Td5h 4d3h That's 11 players. |
#5
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Re: Quiz: Draw dead preflip with AA
AA is not drawing dead in your scenario.
There is still the possibility of flopping a straight flush for a split between all players. Can you reaarange for the eleven players to prevent that split also? EDIT: There is also the possibility for a lot of split pots between the pocket aces for one pair if I see this correct. |
#6
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Re: Quiz: Draw dead preflip with AA
[ QUOTE ]
Can you reaarange for the eleven players to prevent that split also? [/ QUOTE ] Oops. For the straight flush you'll need 5 blockers and T blockers of the other two suits. We can remove the KK as it is no longer needed for straight blocking with four 10s out. So the list becomes: AsAc KhQd Jh9d 8h7d 6h5d 4h3d TsTc TdTh 5s5c Now we need a 2, 3 more hearts, 3 more diamonds: Qd2h 8d5h Kd3h Which is 12. edit: [ QUOTE ] EDIT: There is also the possibility for a lot of split pots between the pocket aces for one pair if I see this correct. [/ QUOTE ] No because every other card is out, so there will always be at least 2 pair and AA will always lose. When the board double pair, somone will have trips, etc. It's mentioned in the conditions above. edit again: actually hold that thought, some further rearrangement may be required to prevent this on non pairing boards. It should be possible with 12 though [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] |
#7
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Re: Quiz: Draw dead preflip with AA
Damn, you're right, K7492 is one such possibility for example. This is tougher than I thought [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Back to the drawing board. I think part of the trick will be to unpair the 5s and 10s and separate the connectors so that a straight becomes inevitable when 2 pairs are missed.
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#8
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Re: Quiz: Draw dead preflip with AA
Thanks for trying it out. It seems you have Qd twice in the list. As I have edited into my previous post, I still think that you are missing when the board comes rags like: 2d 4c 6c 9c Qs. Then the Aces will split the pot with top pair.
I have constructed an example where AA is drawing dead that I have verified with http://twodimes.net. I will post the example later today but it might be fun if someone could beat me with the number of opponents I had to use or come up with another combination than I did. |
#9
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Re: Quiz: Draw dead preflip with AA
Here's my solution:
You hold Ad Ah. Opponents hold: As Ac Kd Qh Jd Jh Jc Js 9d Th 8d 8h 6d 6h Qd 7h 5s 5c 4d 2h 3d 3h Solution with 11 numbers + any remaining diamond-heart couple = 12 hand total. I'm guessing you did it in 11? If so, I don't know how. You need: - 9 diamonds + 9 hearts to block a four flush = 9 hands minimum - One offsuit high pair (e.g. JJ) to block a high straight & straight flush - 1 extra hand - One offsuit low pair to block the board doing a straight flush split - 1 extra hand - One offsuit AA to block quads and a set - 1 extra hand For a total of 12 hands. |
#10
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Re: Quiz: Draw dead preflip with AA
Phil your solution allows the Aces to win 34 times.
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