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#1
10-17-2005, 03:35 AM
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Turn Decision
Loose 20-40 at the Commerce.
Old Asian Man (AMA) appears pretty tight and is sitting to my right. I've played with him 40 minutes and his only action besides folding is limping twice and folding to flop bets. Everyone else in the hand is really loose and fairly passive when faced with reasonable aggression. One limper to AMA who raises. I coldcall with 88. 4 others call. 6 to the flop. Flop: Q83 rainbow. Checked to him, he bets, I call, 3 others call. Turn: J putting up two hearts. He bets, I raise, 2 callers, he 3 bets. I??? 
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#3
10-17-2005, 03:45 AM
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Re: Turn Decision
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I??? [/ QUOTE ] should have raised the flop [/ QUOTE ] Agreed and fairly undebateable I think. What do I do know though?
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#4
10-17-2005, 06:42 AM
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Re: Turn Decision
I dunno, I think the flop slowplay is fine. There are alot of hands drawing very nearly dead that you don't want to shut out with 2 cold on the flop and a very good chance it gets raised behind you anyway. Gutshots will probably correctly call two cold anyway knowing they have 4 clean outs to the nuts. So I'm pretty sure they only folds you get by raising the flop are ones you don't want and you stand to get a lot more action by letting more people see another card. Its rare that its right to slowplay in a pot this big, but I think this is a pretty perfect spot.
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#5
10-17-2005, 08:59 AM
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Re: Turn Decision
[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, I think the flop slowplay is fine. There are alot of hands drawing very nearly dead that you don't want to shut out with 2 cold on the flop and a very good chance it gets raised behind you anyway. Gutshots will probably correctly call two cold anyway knowing they have 4 clean outs to the nuts. So I'm pretty sure they only folds you get by raising the flop are ones you don't want and you stand to get a lot more action by letting more people see another card. Its rare that its right to slowplay in a pot this big, but I think this is a pretty perfect spot. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Everyone else in the hand is really loose and fairly passive when faced with reasonable aggression. [/ QUOTE ] It's unlikely that there is a flop raise at this table. AMA would 3-bet a flop raise with an overpair though I would think. Slowplay would be better at a typical laggy table, but here I think I am too often going to kill my action by waiting.
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#6
10-17-2005, 03:50 AM
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Re: Turn Decision
Just curious as to why you slowplayed on the flop? The pot is pretty big already and it's multiway.
There are a boatload of straight draws that this type of table could have, and that you need to charge them for. The slimmest hands like backdoor flush draws, pocket pairs and Ax type hands, will probably fold for one bet anyways. It could also help to better define AMA's hand. I understand that you could be waiting to the turn to raise (wrong play IMO, but I could see that being a reason you didn't raise the flop), but you need to remember that there is no guarantee he will fire again either. EDIT: I realize I didn't really answer your question here. The way you did play it, I think you almost definetly have to call. You will be beat by JJ or QQ like 90% of the time I think, and probably get outdrawn another 5% of the time. But the pot is much too large, and theres a chance he could play AA this way (?). If you're certain that he's so tight he wouldn't 3-bet without top set here, then by all means ditch it now and don't waste the two bets.
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#7
10-17-2005, 03:56 AM
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Re: Turn Decision
[ QUOTE ]
Just curious as to why you slowplayed on the flop? The pot is pretty big already and it's multiway. There are a boatload of straight draws that this type of table could have, and that you need to charge them for. The slimmest hands like backdoor flush draws, pocket pairs and Ax type hands, will probably fold for one bet anyways. It could also help to better define AMA's hand. I understand that you could be waiting to the turn to raise (wrong play IMO, but I could see that being a reason you didn't raise the flop), but you need to remember that there is no guarantee he will fire again either. [/ QUOTE ] I waited b/c I was stuck a rack, wanted a big pot and knew that these guys would probably call with gutshots and one pairs on the turn for two bets also. The play is to raise the flop. No doubt. I'm still curious what to do on the turn in this spot though...
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#8
10-17-2005, 04:01 AM
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Re: Turn Decision
[ QUOTE ]
I waited b/c I was stuck a rack, wanted a big pot ... [/ QUOTE ] A feeling I know all too well. It also seems that every time I think back in these situations, I'm regretting the greedy play I made and vowing to never do it again.
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#10
10-17-2005, 08:37 AM
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Re: Turn Decision
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] and knew that these guys would probably call with gutshots and one pairs on the turn for two bets. The play is to raise the flop. No doubt. [/ QUOTE ] Why? [/ QUOTE ] Waiting for the turn may kill my action. No guarantee that AMA bets the turn. Big multi-way pot. I have a strong hand, but it's vulnerable. Granted, it's pretty strong, but there are two gutshots out there and lots of hands can become open-ended with a favorable turn. It's generally easier to play with a flop raise.
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