The pre-flop limp re-raise in limit HE

Salva135 · #1 10-16-2005, 01:59 PM

A player limps in from any position, someone after him raises, and he re-raises. I've been seeing this a lot lately at some low limits -- occasionally with KK, but almost always AA. Good or bad play? My thought is that this is pretty awful, because the extra small bet you can make from your opponent is not worth all of the bets you lose on later streets by making it incredibly obvious what you hold. This play works in no-limit, because often the amount of the original raise that you come over the top of can be worth taking down right there and then if the original raiser folds. But in limit, the reward for giving up this much information doesn't seem to be worth it. Thoughts?

EStreet20 · #2 10-16-2005, 02:13 PM

Depends on the table you're at. It's a good play if there's a very aggressive (and hopefull loose) players on the button or the blinds, and if the players between you won't call two bets cold. I'll sometimes open limp AA here, get 3 or 4 limpers in between, button raises and I reraise. Now I've got a decent chance of getting it heads up with AA in an infalted pot. It's even better if a blind raises, now I've got the same circumstance but with position on my opponent.

Good luck,
Matt

#3 10-16-2005, 04:21 PM

Yes this is a good play especially in the situation described where there will be limpers between you and a late positon/blind raiser. You can then go ahead and thin the field and/or collect extra bets. This is all good. However, if you plan on making this play and there is no raise behind you you have increased your odds of LOSING the pot--not cool. Also be aware that there might be a raise to your immediate right in which case I think it is best to smooth call the raise, assuming there are no other callers, and see what develops. If the board does not apperar to be very threatening then you might try for a check-raise on either the flop or the turn.

#4 10-16-2005, 06:04 PM

To me, it's a good play as long as someone does raise. If someone does not raise, now the AA could be reduced to a simple pair after the flop. You could opened the door to suited connectors, straight draws, flushes, trips, or 2 pair. I usually raise 3 times the blind with AA in the hole. That's just my play.

yoadrians · #5 10-16-2005, 10:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To me, it's a good play as long as someone does raise. If someone does not raise, now the AA could be reduced to a simple pair after the flop. You could opened the door to suited connectors, straight draws, flushes, trips, or 2 pair. I usually raise 3 times the blind with AA in the hole. That's just my play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise 3 times the big blind with AA in the hole in a limit game? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

EStreet20 · #6 10-17-2005, 08:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise 3 times the blind with AA in the hole. That's just my play

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy must tip the delaer a shitload for him to allow a raise to three times the BB in limit hold 'em.

JohnnyHumongous · #7 10-16-2005, 10:00 PM

Expert high-limit players will mix up limp-reraising with AA, KK, and suited connectors like 89s. This way, with intelligent and observant opponents they disguise their hand and they get 'too much' respect on their 89s hands and they get paid off 'too much' on their AA and KK.

sthief09 · #8 10-18-2005, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Expert high-limit players will mix up limp-reraising with AA, KK, and suited connectors like 89s. This way, with intelligent and observant opponents they disguise their hand and they get 'too much' respect on their 89s hands and they get paid off 'too much' on their AA and KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

on a bit of a tangent, does the fear of a limp-reraise, and the value it adds to AA/KK make a hand like 98s enough to limp UTG with, even very occasionally?

crunchy1 · #9 10-16-2005, 10:29 PM

Ed Miller made a post in a SS Forum thread about LRR that he felt EP LRR were usually big pairs, while LP LRR were usually junk. I, as well as most others who participated in that thread, agree.

In general, I think LRR in SS games sucks. SS games are full of bad, passive players who will just a soon call two bets as they will limp along for one. Failing to just outright raise with your big hands PF is going to cost you bets in the long run. Not only are you failing to protect your hand by allowing the field to limp along before the flop but also, at the same time, you're failing to extract value when you hold a large pot equity edge.

There's a deception/extraction argument to be made if you're making this play in tough games where this play will confuse thinking opponents - as someone has already mentioned. These types of games rarely occur in the lower limits.

In loose, passive SS games with generally bad players you're simply just making two BIG mistakes in one single move.

TimM · #10 10-17-2005, 02:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller made a post in a SS Forum thread about LRR that he felt EP LRR were usually big pairs, while LP LRR were usually junk. I, as well as most others who participated in that thread, agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes you just know he doesn't have it.

Party Poker 15.00/30.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 folds, UTG+1 calls, 1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, Hero raises, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero caps, Button calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (19.67 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (11.33 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, MP1 calls.

River: (14.33 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 17.33 BB.
Results in white below:
Hero has Ts Tc (two pairs, tens and fours.)
Button has 7s 9s (two pairs, nines and fours.)
MP1 has 9d 8d (two pairs, nines and fours.)
Hero wins 17.23 BB.


I also remember another time when a player LRR'ed aces twice in the same session. In a later hand he raised, I 3-bet KK and he capped. I was able to play pretty aggressively after that knowing he probably did not have aces.